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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
A Writer’s Journey: Bad Art Friend and the Messy Realities of Writer Friendships
Ever had a friend steal your kidney story? Neither had we until we dove into the notorious "Bad Art Friend" literary scandal that rocked the writing world. In this raw, unfiltered conversation, we unpack what happens when writer friendships go spectacularly wrong—and why creative relationships can be both essential lifelines and potential minefields.
The publishing journey is rarely a straight line, and the people you meet along the way can profoundly impact your experience. We share deeply personal stories about navigating the messy realities of writer friendships: the friend who visibly bristled at our good news, the acquaintances who only appeared when they needed something, and the strange feeling of watching peers succeed while you're still struggling. These conversations aren't happening enough in writing communities, where social media can make everyone else's path look deceptively smooth.
But it's not all cautionary tales! We also explore how to find your authentic writing community—those rare souls who celebrate your wins without reservation and hold space for your rejections and disappointments. From local writing groups to online communities, we share practical strategies for connecting with fellow writers who understand the unique challenges of the creative life.
The episode concludes with a candid discussion of red flags (like the "friend" who only contacts you after you've leveled up) and green flags (the person who checks in on your writing even when you haven't published anything lately) in writer relationships. Whether you're just starting your writing journey or navigating the complexities of the publishing world, this conversation will help you cultivate meaningful connections while protecting your creative spirit.
Join us for this heartfelt exploration of literary friendships, and remember: the right writing circle can transform not just your work, but your entire creative experience. Subscribe, share, and let us know your own experiences with writer friendships!
Link: A Writer's Journey with Scrivener!
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
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Watch episodes on YouTube as well.
💜 Level up your writing process with Scrivener ...
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmyallcom. That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2:On this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles. We're going on a writer's journey. Good writers and good friends Enjoy.
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of A Writer's Journey. In this episode, we're going to be talking about writer friendships and how great they can be, but also, you know, some things happen at times. Put it that way to get us kicked off, jd. Uh, what are we going to be talking about? What are we starting with?
Speaker 2:well, I guess we could kick it off with a kidney, talking about the infamous bad art friend saga, literary feud that turned into a viral cautionary tale about writing friendships. So if you missed this one, buckle up. A writer donates a kidney, writes about it online in a secret face group. Her writer friend sees this and writes her exact experience in a short story. The short story blows up, elevates her, her career, and then she gets upset, so upset that she reaches out to schools that this author is appearing at and accuses her of being like plagiarizing and why are you hosting this person? And then she goes to do a book festival and they were going to give away tons of copies of the book and she's posing with these huge rock star writers and in pictures.
Speaker 2:And the woman who donated the kidney is getting even more upset because in the story the kidney donation is not looked at as like this brilliant gift of love. It's looked at as like this entitled white woman who has a white savior complex, like this entitled white woman who has a white savior complex giving the kidney in a narcissistic act of look at me, this is the wonderful, good thing I've done. So she then reaches out to the festival and she threatens to sue them and she accuses the woman of plagiarism and the festival says okay, well, we don't want to get sued, so we're not hosting it this year. So then the writer who took her friend's story has her friends reach out to the festival, and basically her friends. Some of them are real heavy hitters, like the lady who wrote that Little Fires Everywhere, probably butchering the title, but you know a?
Speaker 2:lot of heavy, you know a lot of well-known writer friends, yeah, yeah. And they reach out and basically the festival responds by saying we have grounds to sue you. It shouldn't have been submitted to us in the first place because of the whole plagiarism accusations and we can't, you know, distribute this because we don't want to be sued. Stop having your friends contact us. So it's kind of a hit to her career. So through the lawsuit, emails are leaked and from the emails and the group chat she realized that the woman who donated the kidney really had no friends, because her friends were all talking about her in doing this and how distasteful it was to post this kidney donation. And like the one girl who wrote the story is like, oh, she's a literary goldmine, I could write about her forever because of this, these type of antics and choices, and so the group chats all come out. The literary world collectively side eyes and they're wondering who's the villain.
Speaker 2:And weirdly, the whole thing made me think of Drake. A lot of times we don't know what we have blind spots to until someone points us out. And if you followed the whole Drake, kendrick raps like he's trying to free the slaves and you just set Kendrick up for the line where he's saying homie still double down, trying to call us slaves and called him a colonizer and all this stuff. It's like he didn't see that those choices, through the lens of culture, could have been interpreted differently. And I think when this woman posted her journey of getting a kidney to her, it was like this is an important part of my life, this is a great thing I'm doing. She didn't realize that culturally, through whatever eyes other people were looking at it, they could have interpreted differently, like if it was a good thing, why did you have to brag about it?
Speaker 3:If it was by the other person, I feel like you're giving her a lot of grace, but I mean, like she did it to get she wanted I feel like she wanted to be liked and and you know she wanted that admiration from these writers, particularly probably because some of them are known, you know who are doing well, and she wanted their respect and admiration.
Speaker 3:And so it's like, yes, she did a thing that is selfless, but at the same time, she did it for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 3:What I'm understanding from the situation and then all the gossipy texts that came out, um, and so it's just like one of these situations where, like you're saying, someone not understanding their own blind spot and I'm not sure if someone tried to explain that to her before the short story was written and all that sort of thing it seemed like people were really just kind of got, kind of basically disgusted by it and just kind of kept their distance, instead of saying, hey, this seems in bad taste and here's why. But I get why nobody did that. Or seems like no one did that because these people weren't they weren't really friends anyway. And, um, from my understanding that the lady that wrote the short story basically says that, like we weren't friends, um, it's like okay, yeah, we're all part of this writer's community, um, and maybe giving each other support in some sort of way, but from her perspective she wasn't necessarily friends with this other woman, where the other woman, I guess, thought they were very true.
Speaker 2:it's honestly very messy and I think that's what made this story so compelling to people online and made it go viral. It's because, first of all, they were all well-known writers, so these were names people knew. And then, secondly, to get to peek behind the curtain and see the ins and outs and the messy yucca friendships was intriguing. But I don't know. I'm I'm trying to give her a little grace and shoot her a little bail because I don't know why, but maybe because we've all, like, sometimes not realized our own internalized mess, like I remember one of my very, very super early writing experiences and this one never, like, saw the light of day. So that's how long ago it was.
Speaker 2:But I wrote this story and one of my beta readers told me that it had like echoes of misogyny and I remember being quite embarrassed being a woman. But when you consider, you know, growing up in the hip hop culture, being raised on Purple Rain and stuff like that, there's a lot of. When you rewatch these things and you re-listen to things of those times, you know what I mean. There's a lot of misogyny in certain messaging that you're exposed to, a lot to where you can internalize it, even as a woman and not realize it until somebody points it out to you.
Speaker 3:And then you're like well, this is culture in general.
Speaker 2:True cultural in general, but I just use that as an example, because you know I love it. But, like I said, you know, sometimes we don't realize things about ourselves until somebody points it out. And then, once somebody points it out, you can be like oh wow, I need to work on that. And then you do. And that's why beta readers and crit partners are important, because, thank God, I didn't see the world. So I'd rather you tell me. You know privately and in person, you know what I mean. Then the world tell me and I'm caught with my pants down looking crazy. So you know. That's why those things are important.
Speaker 2:But I guess her friends didn't pull her aside and say, hey, people could interpret this differently. And I've been in situations like that. I had a friend who went to Africa and posted all these pictures with these adorable African kids. But then the caption is like oh well, I gave them money and was just going on and on. Oh well, I gave them money and was just going on and on, like like, these particular children were like so impoverished and struggling and oh, what they have over there is nothing like what we have here. And it was like Don't know how to feel about this, because if it's from the heart, why would you have to say that? You know what I mean. So you get that conflicted feeling.
Speaker 2:And then I remember, years ago, having a friend tell me a story about how they went to this place. Their computer had broken and they didn't have money to buy a new one and they went to this place. That was like, oh, yada, yada, if you make under x, we'll donate computers to you and help you out, and they go. But then when they get there the people are like video. What a video. Testimony of their poverty, poverty. What is this craziness Like? If charity is from the heart, does it have to be advertised? You know what I mean. So, and people read it wrong. So if you're the person that's doing that, you don't have the friend that's telling you. We're the friend that's telling you. That doesn't look so good. People interpret that away that you might not want to interpret it. So maybe not, you know, maybe just let your duty be between you, the person you help and whatever higher power you believe in. But yeah, but it was super interesting, though.
Speaker 2:Um, I wonder how she felt discovering that her friends really weren't her friends because, like I said, there was a lot of entitled white woman talk and a lot of white savior complex talk going on, and it's just like I wonder. Oh, and then the most fun part that I liked about it was when the woman who wrote the story had to, at one point, defend it, and she was basically, you know, talking about the white savior narrative and the woman's entitlement, and then she was basically like you know, my story wasn't about this person and they shouldn't want it to be about them.
Speaker 3:She was basically like why would you claim this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just feel like both of them could have handled the situations differently, whereas, um, so the the person who wrote the story, just to keep from things from escalating from the start, I think there's two things that could have been done that letter that kind of sparked off the plagiarism type conversation. If it had been written initially, like the initial time it was published, to maybe have the feel of the letter but not actual sentences from it, that's one thing. It eventually was published to have the feel of it, but if that was how it was from the start, that could have stopped some things. And then, two, I felt like if she had picked some other sort of donation or charity that is selfless but also can be seen as narcissistic, white privilege or, you know, white savior, complex, it would have kept the intent of her story without having to directly be pointed at this one person, and then everyone in her circle would have known it was this one person, um, and that could have been, you know, their inside chuckle or whatever, but but then like it could have protected her from all of the litigation and all that stuff that subsequently happened.
Speaker 3:Um, and then the other person just went too far, like just from the start, like all the like, the messaging, and she kept hounding this woman. Did you like? Basically like are you writing a story about me? Did you write it? And like the lady wasn't responding, so she doesn't owe you anything, and that whole.
Speaker 3:That that's the privilege part of the privilege part, where she's like pushing and pushing and it's just like if you have a story to tell, tell your story. Stop antagonizing this other person. And basically to me it seemed like a little bit of harassment, even like after the fact, where I guess this was years later where the writer is doing like virtual um, like book stuff, panels and that sort of thing, and that lady has joined them, um, and to me that's like it's like threatening and stalkerish and it's weird. And so it's just like you kind of see even from the New York Times article why people feel not so great about this lady in the first place. But then, like I said, there are other things that could have been done on the other end to keep the story from pointing directly towards her. But yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:She could have made it like a bone marrow donation, for example. Yeah, and fun fact, I heard that the woman in question, dawn Dorland, is the one who donated the kidney. And fun fact, I heard that it was her who actually approached the times, so I don't think she was expecting the article to be scathing of her as well well, that's it.
Speaker 3:You don't know your own blind spots. You think like that, where you think you're so in the right, and it's just like, oh, you're a little off here too, and I, I love that. The person who wrote that article put it all in it, like like, these are their personalities and this is you know, and and from her own words, from her own words and her own actions, um, it's just like, okay, you think you're in the right, but I'm holding this mirror up to you again.
Speaker 2:I can't believe it. I don't know. And Sonia Larson was the one who allegedly lifted the real life act and wrote the story, and her story was called the Kindness which is the title, is also kind of funny too.
Speaker 3:Just in retrospect of all the whole situation you're right, it was.
Speaker 2:Her responses were over the top. Situation. You're right, her responses were over the top. Definitely I wouldn't have written to the festivals and schools that she attended. If I was going to sue then I would have sued, you know what I mean. But I would have just left it at that. I wouldn't have done all the other stuff. But the friend was like equally wrong too, if you look at the situation. Like they said, the earlier draft had. She had written a letter to the person who donated kidneys. He had posted that on Facebook as well, dawn had yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dawn had, and, like you said, parts of that letter were in the original draft. In the original draft of the novel the main character's name was Dawn she later changed it to Rose.
Speaker 3:It's just like stuff like that, like it's on paper, like it's on. You know, let's do those things from the start instead of yeah, right.
Speaker 2:And to me, like I said, to me it showed a lot of human nature, because people don't know their blind spots. That woman didn't know hers. Clearly she thought she was in the right. The friend thought she was in the right, but I don't think any of them were actual friends. They were friends and I think Sonia even said that she didn't see this person were actual friends.
Speaker 3:They were friends and I think Sonia even said that she didn't see this person as a friend. She never did.
Speaker 2:So that brought us to the question of how do we build healthy friendships in publishing? What do publishing and writing friendships look like? So would you like to share a story about any author friendships or author friendship drama that you can or should?
Speaker 3:we start with our story and how we met um. We met in the drexel mfa program. We were part of the second cohort, um, but we were on different tracks. You were in the fiction program and I was in the screenwriting program at the time, and so I remember and it was during COVID, so we didn't get to meet in person until we were about just about to graduate, during our last residency.
Speaker 3:But I remember seeing your picture in like the like the really message boards, but like the boards, and when we had some classes together and we would have to post in the little boards and read people's things, um, and I, like I was like, oh, I want to be friends with this person. And so when it came time for the, the reading for my cohort so we were screenwriters, so then we had to get other people to read, read for us, and I reached out to you and you were great and said, yes and um, we met in person, that, that, what the day before or whatever, but then really got to know each other that that night, um, and we've been friends ever since and, funny enough, I think, is that the only time we've been in person. Yeah, yeah, it's weird, I feel like I've known you forever but at weekends, but yeah only time we've ever seen each other in person.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, and so it's just been like a really great budding friendship and I'm learning stuff about fiction from you and hopefully trying to show you some things about screenwriting as well show you some things about screenwriting, um as well and, like it's been a positive friendship. So this is what been one of my positive um writer friendships. You are got all these amazing things happening, um, since you graduated and I'm just so happy and proud and I, I like that I get to read some things ahead of time, which is cool, and you've always been very supportive of me. So we have a good friendship, we do, we do.
Speaker 2:My version of it, though, is different.
Speaker 3:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:So my version of the weekend we met is I hadn't seen you before. Like we did have class together, um, but I'm really not good in the like virtual and discord space. I'm not the girl that engages like at all the time and so I didn't like remember the faces and the names and stuff. You know what I mean. And then when we got together at the graduation and stuff, it was a predominantly white environment. So when you see the brown faces in a predominantly white environment, you're like, oh hey, this is nice to see somebody that looks like you in a sea of people that don't. Basically.
Speaker 2:So I did remember like looking at you, like hey, cool to know her. You know what I mean, but I don't remember you from the classes. And then I my experience of it was like I said, the first day at lunch I went out to lunch with these girls and kind of felt a little clicky. You know the environment at that time. Um, it was a lot of literary people in my cohort and I'm fantasy, so I didn't exactly fit maybe we should do a podcast about literary versus genre as well so, like I said, we went out to lunch everybody.
Speaker 2:When they dismissed for lunch, we all walked out. We got lunch together, we sat, we ate, we ch and I thought it went really well. But then the next day, when it was time for lunch, they beelined out and left me. I was pitiful, all by myself.
Speaker 3:Well, damn.
Speaker 2:So I guess I'll go to my room. So I got some food and I went up to my room and then I think it was later that that day, like around the dinner time, wasn't it when I met you, or was it the next day at lunch.
Speaker 3:I can't remember. It might've been around dinner time, is that what you were like? Waiting for your food, and I came in with some other people, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I just kind of latched on. I was desperate for companionship during the lunch break, so I attached myself to the group.
Speaker 2:And then we started talking and then later on they had another break between different panels and classes and stuff that were going on in the residency. And then it was me, you and Mo and y'all were trying to decide what you wanted to do, because this wasn't a long break, it was maybe 20 minutes or something or 30. And you were trying to figure out what you wanted to do and then I was like, hey, I got a room in the hotel, just come on up, we'll chat.
Speaker 3:And then you guys came up and that's when we really started talking because you and mo were part of my reading and then yeah, we went up to them, or chatting, yeah, what's the beginning so my, my strongest memory was of being abandoned the next day.
Speaker 2:Then be like well, like well. So then, when I saw you, I was like screw and hope they don't shake me loose. I've always been awkward. That was my awkwardness again.
Speaker 3:And that's like. It's funny, though, because, like I've always been that person too that people just like abandon and run away from. And it's just like I'm a kind person. What is this? It's the awkwardness, I guess. I don't know, and I can be pretty quiet sometimes too. We latched on to each other.
Speaker 2:Here we are, yeah, and the lesson in that is that writer friendships, they can be fun, they can be exciting, but they can also be challenging. When you have people who you share ambitions and goals with, it can get weird sometimes.
Speaker 3:So let's talk about some of the weirdness sure, I mean I have another writer friend that I knew from the first grad program that I did like first MFA program, still a very good friend.
Speaker 3:Love her dearly, hey, ernie. Um, but for me, um, so like she's, she published a book and then published things, um, and I've never been like jealous of people. It's always been like I'm happy for them doing what they set out to do. It's always more of a well, what, why haven't you done this yet? Like. It's more of like beating myself up type thing, um, so I remember, um, I had a friend that published a book and it took me more than a year to realize that I didn't buy it and I was like, oh shit, like, what kind of a friend am I?
Speaker 3:Like? Buy my friend's book? Jesus, what is wrong with you? Um, so I did so, I did buy the book and then it took me a while to read it. Um, because I know there were like some stories that were in there for that I had read a part of or knew about or whatever, and it was just hard because it was just like, you know, this person was able to do this, why aren't you? They are also working full time.
Speaker 3:I have other friends who have children and that family and that sort of thing, and so for me it's always been this battle of beating myself up. Sorry, I'm getting emotional, uh, and that's something I've been working through and it's for like 15 years. It's like working through that and uh, and having you has been really great because you like contact me, we'll be talking, be like, what are you working on? And so it keeps me honest of whether I'm working on something or not. But like, um, especially more recently, I'm pushing because I'm like I'm seeing my friends do this and it's just like I have these skills too. You know there's nothing different from us. Also, like I, it's helping me, um, so like for me, like I've never been so jealous of someone to be like mean towards them or like not talk to them or whatever. It's more beating myself up, um.
Speaker 3:But there was those moments, um, especially early on, where I couldn't read, um what people I knew had published, because it's just, it's just, you know, added more to my own self saturation or whatever the word is. Uh, self, you know, doubt and all that kind of stuff. But now it's different now, now I'm not like that anymore. I'm just like you know, I can read stuff like they haven't been put, like for you, hasn't been published yet or for, and like give feedback, like be a reader, um, for people, um, so, yeah, so that there's that for me in terms of how I've felt about friends who have written. Um, I don't know, do you want me to go on in terms of how other writer friends have treated me, or are we gonna? You want to go ahead?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, actually, before you go there, I want to talk about what you just talked about, cause I've experienced that too and that's very real and very human and very natural. I had a friend, who I'm going to give as much detail as I can, without giving away who I'm talking to, cause I don't want them to watch it and be like not yet anyway.
Speaker 2:But I had a friend who had a great deal of success pretty quick into their publishing path and they reached some of my dreams and lifelong goals in publishing. And this was at a time when I wasn't even agented yet and we started out together at the same time and then they just hit. So then it was like damn, you know, it's like yay for her, so happy for her, and really like from the bottom of my heart, was happy for her, was proud for her, was showing people this is my friend, you know what I mean and like I'd be at work pulling it up and showing people, so excited for her. But at the same time it caused that same self-doubt that you were talking about for myself and I was like, damn, do I suck? Why is this not happening for me too? Am I terrible? Is people just too kind to tell me? So I get that.
Speaker 2:And those emotions are completely valid and we all go through that. So like it's beautiful to have friends who share goals and ambitions because you can talk to them about things other people might not understand, like querying of submission and revision, hell, and all of the stuff and the emotions that go into it, and even like ask professional advice. But it's also hard because when you have friends with the same goals and ambitions, you know everybody doesn't make it at the same time, so then you have to deal with when they're up and you're down or vice versa, and then that can make it like messy and complicated. The story we just saw was messy, or talked about was messy and complicated, so it can get challenging. Now talk about what people have done to you yeah so.
Speaker 3:So I'm not in a position. So I've been attempting to write and whatever for quite a while, but I'm, like I said, beating myself up and not really putting things out there. I'm not in a place where I can help people do anything. I can help people like connect people to certain people.
Speaker 3:I might be now in a sense, but I feel like writer friends that I've had have viewed me as and even should I even call them friends someone who can't help them, um, get published or get to help them reach their goal on a particular way, to connect them to people in the industry in that sort of way. So therefore, it was just kind of I felt like their distance was put there because I'm not useful to them, and so I see that, okay, then these people aren't actually my friends. And if and when I do get to those no, certain people and maybe I do at this point I feel like those aren't folks that I would go out of my way to help or connect um, because you weren't my friends, you weren't here just for me as a human being, um. So therefore, why go out of my way for that? I don't know if that's a good way to think, but way for that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's a good way to think, but human, it's real. Why would you bend over backwards for people?
Speaker 3:who wouldn't bend a pinky to? Assist you not even asking me how I am, or like it's like okay, well, you don't really care about me so yeah, that's the crazy thing about. Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry I just I think that's an importance for anybody who's any in any sort of industry or whatever. Where you are can be next to gatekeepers, in a sense. Um, to beware of that.
Speaker 2:You know, why are people getting close to you or in your life, whatever and they can also go other ways too, because there are scenarios where people could warm up to somebody who hasn't made it yet, because they want to get closer to someone who has. You know what I mean. So there's like layers to how people can be backstabby and messy and what they think is power. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly how they can exploit to try to get close to it. We're not realizing sometimes, people in areas where you think there is no power, there actually is great power. You're just not seeing Because not everybody is flashy like that.
Speaker 2:You got to protect yourself and protect the people around you. Exactly, Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. I felt that too Earlier in my journey.
Speaker 2:I remember being at the Literary Awards one time and I was always in this weird position where I would interview authors. So I was always like side from publishing but hadn't reached my publishing goals yet. So I would be networking with people who had, like, reached all kinds of heights but I'm still in the query trenches, I'm still just trying to make it. And in a lot of ways it was strategy because it was networking. It was trying to meet people and trying to get in the room where you if this is your dream you want to be in the room where it's happening, kind of thing. But the downside about that is when you're in the room and you haven't really reached those goals yet, then a lot of times you get that, that feeling where you were talking about where people are like look past you and not necessarily at you yeah or like one time I had a writer, um, who was way more accomplished than me, who, who I thought we were friends with.
Speaker 2:Like I felt like kind of trying to put me down intentionally, like she's introducing me to someone and she's like, oh, she's got like thousands of little books on Amazon, which is not true at all. Like I had one at the time, really bad book that I did very early in my writing career.
Speaker 2:That book that I did very early in my writing career. You know my skills have grown way from that point more than a decade ago, but it was only one. It wasn't like a million little books, you know what I mean. So to me it felt like that was very much of a condescending, meant to put me down or to put me in a certain category to this other person who was also more established. And so I had lots of those little moments where you felt like you're there but you don't necessarily belong. And then I've also had the flip side, like once you start selling books or getting agency, you're, you're moving into a different area than it's like. Sometimes some of the people who treated you like that start to now be nicer. And then it's like but yeah, you're full of it because you didn't really actually like me, because I remember how you treated me before I sold the book. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So it's a lot of performative friendships. You know a lot of associate type relationships where people, like, will take pictures with you and call you bestie or sister or cousin or whatever, and then you see them like what? Once or twice a year at an author event. You know what I mean, yeah, and then they're the ones who are like actual legitimate friends, who will call you and check on you, who will be like I haven't heard from you in a while, are you good, or I'm having this thing, can you come? You know what I mean, so mean, so so it. It's a vast variety of awkwardness and people never know where, and also anybody listening to this. Please don't assume I'm talking about you, because likely I'm not. So please don't. You know how people like to like think you're self-tweeting and you're not. No, not. So don't be like. You know getting your feelings about stuff that may have nothing to do with you at all. I could be talking about somebody totally different, so don't even stress yourself out exactly.
Speaker 2:Don't stress yourself out, don't be like the bad author friend. I go plotting my downfall and it might even probably most likely you are mentioning in my interview communication exactly. So yeah, it's complicated. And, going back briefly to the story we just talked about, there's also a thin line between like inspiration and what they did wrong in that story, because sometimes friendships can inspire you. So sometimes when people are reading into things, it might be a grain of truth, but usually it's not. You know, most people aren't the kidney stealing friend.
Speaker 2:Most people don't go into friendships. Well, most legitimate people don't go into friendships with the. What can I get from this? They go into this with the. I want to know you, I want to be cool with you. Space and that story made me cautious because I'm in some debut groups and I told you I host like the author meetups like once a month and I really want to do one specific to authors of color too, because sometimes we have different issues that have to be addressed. But like it makes you scared because, like I don't do the discord a lot, a lot of people do. A lot of people stay in those debut discords texting all day, but I'm not trying to put a ton of shit in writing you shouldn't I mean, I know we're writers.
Speaker 3:But you know there are thin signs.
Speaker 2:You have to think of legal aspects right, especially like some of them have, like the venting and ranting segments, and people will get in there and vent and rant and hopefully it's a safe space, but some of those groups can have like up to 400 people in them, so there's so you should consider it public when the group's that large.
Speaker 3:I mean and also you have to think about, well, going back to the story where we just talked about, because there was court proceedings, all that stuff, all of the text messages and the group chat and stuff got um, what discovery was part of discovery. So you know what you think it all became public yeah, it all became public.
Speaker 2:So in the moment what you think are private spaces, because later on become public, because something happens and is being litigated and there's the right to put that stuff out there so and that's why I do the monthly meetups, because I'm a more, I'm more of a face-to-face gal, like to me, like even with us, like right now, like how we said, we've only met in person the one you know, weekend or whatever.
Speaker 2:But when you face to face, you feel more of a connection, you feel like you know the person.
Speaker 2:It's like you're actually hanging out with the person, and I prefer that than the constantly text with strangers, because the way my mind works, I won't commit the faces to the names, and so to me it wouldn't have the same depth it might to you, because I might respond to you in the thing and then you're thinking that we formed this relationship.
Speaker 2:But in my head, if you're one of 400 names on a screen, I'm not remembering all them, my memory is not that great, but if I see you in a Zoom then I can be like oh, there she is, you know what I mean. That resonates with me and connects with me more. But it also, like I said, it made me more cautious in how I communicate In a Zoom or a private chat space. I'll be more candid about the pros, the cons, the things I'm going through that you want to know as an artist like is this person reputable? Is that person, what's your experience? I'll be completely transparent in a private setting, but there's certain things I couldn't or wouldn't say publicly right and you shouldn't right well.
Speaker 3:Also, I have to tell you, my fears in this started in high school.
Speaker 3:So AOL, instant messenger aim for those of you who are old like I um, I used to, you know, talk to that, you know to my friends on that a lot, and because I thought they were my friends, I would just say what I wanted to say and things.
Speaker 3:And I later found that a person was printing them out, um, and letting our other friends read them, um, and so there were things that I told this person that I wouldn't have told or said to the other people, um, and it it was done to embarrass me and it created a lot of shame for me, um, so just, I don't know why I'm telling this. I just reminded me of something that happened, but it was like very traumatic at the time and um has caused, uh, issues for me in terms of, like, trusting people and writing things down and that sort of thing. So just be careful. I guess is the main theme of it all in terms of who you're friends with, who you think you're friends with, and understand there are levels of friendship. So someone might be your best friend but that doesn't necessarily mean you are their best friend. Very true.
Speaker 3:So things like that.
Speaker 2:And I also think it's important too, because there's levels in publishing too. As we go through them, because we all go through them at different timelines, Don't abandon anybody because you wouldn't have wanted to be abandoned in that space, and because shit changes, you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean, you never know who that person might end up being exactly that person might be the next Tyler Perry or somebody, and you burn that bridge for no reason Tyler Perry told a story about. I wish I could remember the story, but it was about the first time he met Oprah and he was like working at a hotel or something, and so he wasn't Tyler. He wasn't anywhere near Tyler but thankfully that wasn't a horrible memory in his mind Because later on, when Owen was in trouble, tyler was one of the people that came along and helped save the network you know with his writing skills and stuff. So I forget the story, though I wish I could repeat it. But just said my memory is not that grand.
Speaker 2:But yeah, on the opposite side of the story, I told earlier where I was like when my friend was up and then I was still down.
Speaker 2:How that made self-doubt was when I had something happen that I was excited about professionally and I shared it with friends and one friend's like and the other friend's just like clearly pissed, visibly pissed, like you could see it all over her face, and it was awkward because it put me in a position of questioning the friendship because, like I said, I was in spaces where I was down and my friend was up before and I was legitimately happy for her. So even if I had some self-doubt emerge from her joy where I was like, well damn, it happened to me, am I not good enough? It never made me mad at her success I was legitimately happy for and rooting for. So to see legitimate anger on the face in my good news just made me be like wow, is this person actually my friend? Like um, were we just associates in this weird industry? You know what I mean? It just changed my view of that person drastically.
Speaker 3:That sucks, yeah, but I feel like in any industry really, it's just par for the course With any success that anybody has, or people who will be happy for you and other people who aren't, and you just have to focus on being happy with yourself and then you know if you've got the people around you who are happy for you. That's amazing. And who cares about the haters?
Speaker 2:exactly. You have to be happy for your, your friends, without feeling like it dims you in any way, because it doesn't, because everybody's on separate journeys and separate times and you know you'll find your writing soulmates you, you will?
Speaker 3:yes, um, I have to. It's been a long process for me, like just trying to find my group of people trying to find my crew and like I feel like I do, um, have folks now and it makes a difference. It makes a huge difference like I don't have as much of that self-doubt anymore. Um, you know, I have writer friends to talk about things with and to to lift me up. So try and find your circle and don't worry about the people, don't worry about the haters.
Speaker 2:You'll find the people who write for you I'm the people who have the performative friendships where it's like less ride or die and more comment and tag.
Speaker 2:Some of the writer clicks can be kind of high school, but you know, give that some grace too, because you got to keep in mind that a lot of times I find that that happens with people who are on a different level than you, or at least in the scenarios where I ran into that, a lot of times it was the people who were more established in their writing career than I was at the time.
Speaker 2:And being that they were on a more established level, maybe they had people approaching them under the guise of friendship who were really trying to get a leg up or get ahead or get this or get that from them. So maybe it wasn't so much of an intentionally trying to feel unwelcome. Maybe it was more of a my guards up a little bit you know what I mean Because I don't want to be exploited or mistreated and then, as I mentioned previously, I'm socially awkward, so maybe they didn't even realize I was feeling any of this you know, you know, most writers are introverts, most of us are awkward people and I am ADD as hell.
Speaker 2:I uh talk a lot. I interrupt because the damn add just is excited and jumping into conversations. So I'm not for everybody, and that's okay.
Speaker 3:You're not gonna like everybody, that's okay yeah, you're not gonna like everybody and everybody's not gonna like you, and that's okay. I'm like the opposite, I'm more quiet and I'm a listener, so like we have the compliments and now that I understand you, and then it's just kind of like oh okay, well, she's got an idea, so let her say it. It's not, I don't have a problem with you like jumping in because I understand where it's coming from.
Speaker 2:It's.
Speaker 3:I don't have a problem with you like jumping in because I understand where it's coming from.
Speaker 2:That's not you're not trying to diminish me. You got to get it out, that's fine. Yeah, my memory is shitty. So sometimes if I don't jump in and say it, if I wait, I'll forget it. You'll be like what were you saying? I'll be like, damn, I don't know. And then, like I said, there are some people who are the social climbers that only talk to you once you're agented or once you start making steps in the right direction, and sometimes you got to be like jay marie and just be like if you weren't there for me, then I don't know about now.
Speaker 3:set healthy boundaries, whatever works for you yeah, trust your gut, as I say you, I feel like you'll know the types of people, especially if you're around people for a while. You know why they're around, you'll know, um, and then you can figure out what you want to do with that, so let's give advice for people on trying to find right friendships um. See, here's where I'm conflicted, because all of my writer friends I found in mfa programs and those cost money yes, that's a lot of money but yeah, if you're, if you've got local writing groups, try those.
Speaker 3:Um, those haven't always worked for me, um, but they have. Do they still have like online ones?
Speaker 2:I know you have a writer friends that you, a friend that you met for with an online group it was a critique group, an online critique group um, I wish I could remember the name of it, but I don't. But yeah, we met probably like maybe 2014, 2015, something like that, and volunteer and stuff. Look for writing festivals or literary awards or different events in your area and volunteer there. And the people we meet who are also volunteering wouldn't be volunteering there if they weren't interested in writing and publishing. So it's a great place to make friends with people with similar interests check your libraries too.
Speaker 3:Libraries always have different book things that's true.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they have like book clubs volunteers for yeah and sometimes they have book clubs and stuff like that. Um, I know at my library sometimes, like during NaNoWriMo, we'll have different programs. That might be a good way to meet local writers.
Speaker 3:During what.
Speaker 2:NaNoWriMo.
Speaker 3:What's that?
Speaker 2:National Writing Month, national Book Writing Month. I probably say it's terrible because I've never participated in NaNo. I've failed it many times, like at least two or three. I've never successfully completed, I should say. But it's like this challenge in November where people try to write a book and I'm off.
Speaker 3:Oh, interesting, that's a lot yeah.
Speaker 2:NaNoWriMo, it's called so a lot of library. Well, my library has events around that, so I'm assuming many others.
Speaker 3:may Many others do as well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Join critique groups online Offer swap pages. Join critique groups online offer swap pages. Join pitch contests and stuff. If you make it into the contest then you know the mentors and the other mentees might be budding friendships. Sometimes there's a lot of like writing aspiring writer, facebook friends groups and stuff like that where you can meet people, slide into somebody's, zoom in their DM excuse me, strike up a conversation. I wouldn't start with the biggest names and yeah, because they probably get a lot of DM slides and a lot of people approaching them and sometimes people have agendas so they will probably be less receptive. So start with people on your level. If you're querying, look for querying writers. If you're aspiring, look for aspiring writers. And if you guys are all working toward the same goal, eventually one of you will make it, eventually two of you will make it. You know what I mean. And then you know you'll have your circle of people in the professional realm of it too. And when you find the good ones, show up for them publicly and privately. Don't ditch them because you're leveled up.
Speaker 2:Don't post about how good a friend you are without actually being the friend yeah be the friend in real life, like if you can't be there physically, you guys can zoom and chat yeah, I do that with all my friends, because I'm nowhere near any of them now, what are red flags you think they could look for with these new friendships?
Speaker 3:oh, that's a good question. Um, I mean, let's see red flag people trying to figure out if and who you know anyone. Because normally, like you know, I feel like in my conversations with my writer friends, those things come about in a sense because you get to a place where you trust and like we could talk about certain things, but someone's just like outright trying to figure that out from the beginning. That's small psych agenda to me. Um, if they're someone's asking you for a lot of your help and reading their work, whatever, and they're not giving that same thing in return, um, yeah, and just simply.
Speaker 2:I mean, sometimes people just disappear yeah, they vanish when your good news is more than their good news at the time yeah or they only reach out when they need something.
Speaker 3:That goes hand in hand with what you were saying earlier like I've had people reaching out to see what I'm doing, if anything has happened. And then when I'm like, oh, I'm working on this, but like nothing's been produced or whatever, then they go, and what are some green flags that they should look for in?
Speaker 2:good friends, good writer friends.
Speaker 3:I mean just a good friend, um, just someone who is interested in you as a person? Um, to me that's a huge green flag. And then the, the? Um commonality of writing as an interest and reading as an interest is a bonus.
Speaker 3:All my writer friends. I feel like, well, maybe I can't say that I was going to say I feel like we were friends first, but then with you and I I don't know that I can actually say that because we met because of the writing. I don't know, it was weird with you. I feel like I met, I feel like I've always known you, like we were friends in a past life or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, true, true, true. I feel like good green flags are good things to look out for as they celebrate your wins and they're genuinely happy for you. They they make space for your lows. And they're not just there for the launches and the fun times, but when you're going through crap, you can call them in wine or vent and they ask you you know what you're working on, how your writing's feeling. And they're not just concerned about what's selling, because when you're a writer, writing is part of who you are, so it's not just about what's selling.
Speaker 2:And what's weird is like if you play basketball, nobody's like when are you going to the NBA? You know what I mean. If you have a hobby of swimming, nobody's like well, when are you going to be the next Michael Phelps? But when you're writing, everybody's like well, when are you going to sell this? And it can't just be because it's something that's a passion that you love, that's a part of who you are. It always has to be a monetary thing attached to it and while it's cool when you get the monetary, when the monetary is not coming, it doesn't feel cool because it feels almost like almost like a value judgment on your work and you, which is very hurtful, because I've been on the receiving end of that many, many times.
Speaker 3:Two things I want to say before I forget them. Going back to the green flags and the friendships and stuff, you will have more acquaintances than anything. So I'm not saying, you know, don't be friendly or whatever with the acquaintances who only show up to the launch parties and that sort of thing, because that's really for most of the people you're going to know anyway. So I'm not saying and we're not saying, oh, those are bad people, you know, that's just how most of it is going to go. They're there.
Speaker 3:They showed up for your success, so that's a good thing as well.
Speaker 2:And I already forgot the other thing I was like and the tag and post friends are not bad either, like the people, like we were saying, who only show up at events once a year or who post a picture with you or tag you. That's not a bad thing either because guess what? They're promoting you, they're sharing you when they post you with their audience, which is still a good thing. So it's not saying that they a bad friend. It's just saying that you can't always believe everything you see on social media. The social media will have somebody believing that this person is your ride or die, your beginning and your end. And really they're a person you see maybe two or three times a year. So don't judge your life and yourself by other people's experiences, because some of the bonds that you're seeing on their timeline aren't even actual bonds of depth. So associates are good. Especially of the bonds that you're seeing on their timeline aren't even actual bonds of debt. So associates are good, especially in the business. It's mutual promotion and it's mutually beneficial. And you know they still know the business so you might be able to still reach out and ask a question about it. So we're definitely not knocking that, but it can get complicated. I've found a lot of friends do the author interviews and that gets complicated.
Speaker 2:I'm a freelance writer. I write and pitch two publications. I am not a staff writer for said publications, so not everything I write and pitch gets picked up. Sometimes they won't want it, sometimes they won't like it. Sometimes, like real life can intervene, like even with Donald Clayton she's new york times bestseller done big things. When I interviewed with her first time I interviewed her january 6th happened when they stormed the capitol and stuff so I pitched the article. I heard back from his magazine they're like we love it, we're gonna run it. January 6th happens they hit me back. They're like sorry, right now the news cycle is of nothing but people storming the Capitol.
Speaker 2:So, then it wasn't going to happen. So then I'm thinking, oh great, she's going to think I'm a liar. I told her they were going to run it. So I'm like you know, and then I had just got signed on to work for a company at the time. So you know me, I anxiety spiraling, thinking she's probably on to the next interview. But in my head this is where my anxiety spiral goes. So then I'm like circling back, circling back, circling back, trying to see like, hey, uh, have we moved on in the news cycle? Not yet. Can we come back to my? And then, finally, you know, and then, um it, the tiny pretty things, um, that she co-wrote hit went on Netflix and it was like in the top 10. So then I circle back again and then this time I'm like top 10 in Netflix, in the US watch shows. And then they put it out.
Speaker 2:But, like, sometimes stuff like that happens, sometimes they're stuttered, sometimes they'll publish it, sometimes they won't.
Speaker 2:Lately, with all the AI stuff out there, to be honest with you, sometimes pitching is hard because you're not only competing with real writers but you're competing with articles for the same bandwidth and the same publications, and so, like you know, so, while it's great for meeting people. Sometimes it can make things challenging because I can meet people, we can have great conversations. I'm like, wow, I'd love to be their friend. And then like either the article won't come out and they're looking at me like I wasted their time, or it might, but it might come out way later, because they didn't initially, wasn't interested. And then I just like tried a way to reframe it, like instead of talking about craft, now we're talking about book banning, and I just honed in on a different part, pitched it again. I don't know, it gets weird, it gets complicated, but I guess what I'm trying to say is give people grace, because you don't know what's going on behind the scenes, and we've all felt this thing of fake friends and the silence.
Speaker 3:That can be deafening. Yeah, it can be deafening. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, um, oh, I just remembered. The other thing I wanted to say was, um, when you're talking about writing and monetizing it, I myself had to reframe that thought and go back to thinking as writing as a fun thing that I do, and if one day that happens in terms of monetization great it's not I'm still doing something that I feel is fun for me, so that can help smooth things over. We can get rid of some of that anxiety in terms of being a writer. Don't forget why you started writing in the first place.
Speaker 2:Right Cause, it's therapy, it's good mental health Sometimes, where, sometimes it's how we process emotion and pain and there's no monetary value that can be placed on. That, you know. But if you want to pay us for it, please do. A period of value that can be placed on that, you know, but if you want to pay us for it, please do so.
Speaker 2:If you're taylor swift, being inspired by your exes to write great songs, or if you're the kidney lady inspired by your friend's donation, um, you know, inspiration is okay. Just don't make, just don't be a shitty friend who's like. Only intent in the friendship is to mind the person for information. And if you're inspired, um, don't go verbatim, making it obvious that it's that person. You can take two or three elements from each person, like from three different people, to form a character and still tell the same story in a way that won't get you in legal trouble. It might have, um, this one character's ambition, this one person's ambition, this other person's donation, but you change it to bone marrow instead of a kidney and it could have this third person's temper, and you can swirl all that up into a mix to make a unique individual that is not a carbon copy of someone that'll get you in trouble.
Speaker 3:You need to write it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, watch your boundaries, guard your circle, be careful who you open up to, be careful what you put in writing and have fun. Yeah, have fun, have fun. Make friends and that's it for today's episode. If this resonated with you, drop us a dm, slide into our dms and tell us how you liked it and share this with your writing friends or your writing associate. We will tell. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4:That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Mayer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayercom. That's jdmayercom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.