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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
A Writer’s Journey: Ryan Coogler’s Sinners and the Future of Vampire Storytelling
Ryan Coogler's "Sinners" has captivated audiences with its fresh take on vampire mythology set against the racially charged backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. This Southern Gothic tale follows twin brothers Smoke and Stack (both masterfully portrayed by Michael B. Jordan) as they return home to open a juke joint, only to encounter supernatural forces that mirror the very real horrors of American racism.
What makes "Sinners" extraordinary is how it weaves multiple layers of meaning throughout its narrative. The film doesn't just deliver vampire thrills—it transforms the vampire mythos into a powerful metaphor for colonization, assimilation, and cultural appropriation. When the Irish vampire Remmick offers immortality to the Black community, his proposition mirrors historical patterns where marginalized groups face devil's bargains: survival at the cost of identity. This dynamic creates a thought-provoking exploration of what it means to survive in a hostile world.
The film's stunning visual language deserves special mention. From breathtaking blue skies over cotton fields to the unforgettable juke joint sequence with its transcendent musical performance, Coogler demonstrates his mastery of cinema as a visual medium. The diverse cast represents the often-overlooked multicultural reality of the American South, including a Chinese merchant family whose complex relationship with the Black community reflects nuanced historical realities.
Beyond its artistic achievements, "Sinners" has broken box office records as the highest-grossing non-IP film since before the pandemic, proving audiences hunger for original storytelling. In a landscape dominated by franchises and reboots, this film stands as powerful evidence that innovative narratives with meaningful social commentary can achieve both critical acclaim and commercial success.
Experience this groundbreaking film that's redefining what vampire stories can be while sparking important conversations about America's past and present. Whether you're a horror aficionado, a fan of historical drama, or simply someone who appreciates masterful filmmaking, "Sinners" offers a richly rewarding cinematic journey that will linger in your mind long after the credits roll.
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.
Speaker 2:On today's episode of Craft Chat Chronicles, we are going to go on a writer's journey with good friends and good writers. Enjoy.
Speaker 3:Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of A Writer's Journey, and today we're going to be talking about the new movie Sinners, which is part of our Southern Gothic 2.0 discussion about vampires. 2.0 discussion about vampires. And so the movie it's been its second week now, I think out, and it's starring Michael B Jordan, written and directed by Ryan Coogler Always a great team, it's a great movie, and so that'll be our discussion today.
Speaker 2:JD. Vampires are your love? All right, so so, sinners. Takes place in 1930s, mississippi. To give you an idea of the time period, it's after rosewood and tulsa, which were two massacres where a racist white mob like burned killed these two towns. And so and it was before, emmett till died for allegedly whistling at a white woman. So it was like a very racially tense time in history. And in this story, elijah, who's called Smoke, and Elias, who's called Stack, are twin brothers who come home to Mississippi to open a juke joint. What was your initial um thoughts after watching the movie?
Speaker 3:I, I loved it so much. I it's exactly the type of movie that I've been waiting for. Just something original. Um, just like cool things happening in the movie, like the I'll just call it the the juke joint scene with the music that was like one of the best.
Speaker 3:We could talk about one of the best cinema, what do you call it? Cinematography, whatever? The best scenes I've ever seen in movies ever. Um, I just love the creativity and the layers of meaning to things and at the same time it was funny. I appreciate movies that have all the different layers and it means something and you have a good time. So, yeah, I was emotionally fulfilled as a moviegoer.
Speaker 2:It was like a full meal it was a great movie.
Speaker 3:Exactly, it's like what you want to spend your money when you go to the movies and so oftentimes they're lacking, and this one was not.
Speaker 2:Love that and, like you said about the cinematography, I love the blue skies. Gorgeous blue skies over the cotton field. It was beautiful. The sunsets were gorgeous In the one scene that we're going to talk about a little bit in the club, when it was like the roof, the roof, the roof is on fire. You remember that shot. It was just beautifully executed and gorgeous and you know there was a lot to love visually about it. What was your take on the characters?
Speaker 3:um, I really liked one the diversity, I have to say. Um, I love movies that don't pretend like it's just one group of people who live in the world, like, especially, we're talking about the Mississippi Delta and I learned something I didn't know there was like a group of um, like a Chinese community in the Mississippi Delta. Um, so like, after seeing that I was like, oh, let me do a little research. And that's another thing I like about um, any type of cinema and tv shows that makes me do a little research and want to learn a little more. Especially it's American history and all that um Smoke and Stack. It's so funny. Like I know they're both Michael B Jordan, but like he had these subtle things where even like, even outside of the two different hats, I could tell who was who, just by like their demeanor and everything which is this brilliant acting um annie is my favorite, um the actress.
Speaker 3:Anytime I see her in it and anything. I feel like she's the actress that like represents me, the person. Anytime I see her in anything I'm like, yes, and I will not try to pronounce her name because I'm going to butcher it but love her um, and I like what they did. Uh, what's Haley Stanfield's character's name? Um, mary, is it Mary? Okay, I was gonna say Mary, but I was like that doesn't seem right. Um, with the, you know, having black heritage but she's passing as white, um, and like still being a part of the black community.
Speaker 3:I love those layers, um, and her relationship with that right yes um, and just all the like, the acting is great and just all of the, the social commentary and just the energy between them, um, I think that the actors had really great chemistry. Um, and the one thing I keep forgetting, and what I also loved about this movie the vampires, because I actually originally wasn't going to see it because I don't like horror, like I don't go see any of those things for the most part, um, but I appreciated that it was almost like the bee story. You know, like they're there but you have all this stuff going on, all these rich layers with smoke and stack and the community and all of that. Um, that I appreciated that, even though, like it's a vampire movie, it wasn't like about the vampires in the full sense. The Irish music was interesting, so, like go online and read about that, because I was just like, oh, okay, and there was another like dance scene with vats, wait wait, you're getting too far ahead, you're fine.
Speaker 2:So something I kept seeing online was that a lot of people were not getting what you got, which was mary's blackness, because while she's white presenting and she's only one eighth black, in that time the one drop rule was like a thing and everybody kept being like well, why was the white girl there? In her hometown she was black. She had a black grandparent, so in her hometown, you know, she was viewed as black. That's why she had to leave to marry the white guy and to start her life. And that's why stack kept being rude to her at first, because he's like it's dangerous for you to be.
Speaker 2:You know well, he didn't say it's dangerous for you to be. You know well, he didn't say it's dangerous. But he later, you know, told her like you know, it's not safe for you to be here with me or with us. You know what I mean. And it's much safer in the 1930s Mississippi to be white than to be black. So I guess what he wanted her to do was you can pass for white, so pass which is what people did back then.
Speaker 3:A lot of people did that yeah, if they could. I mean you can't pass, if you can't pass, but yeah, if they could that's what they did, because their life was different. Oh the Mary being a part of the community. That also speaks to kind of how the Black community is or what I'm used to. It's just like oh, you know your grandma was Black or whatever. Like you're part of the community, like we come in all different shades or whatever, but we know your people, so you can come to the cookout.
Speaker 3:You know, that's how it is.
Speaker 2:True when I try to compare Smoke and Annie and Mary and Stack. Yeah, really In this movie, because, like, initially I didn't feel like Stack's love for Mary was as deep Because he was like pushing her away, pushing her away. But then we got the reasons as deep because he was like pushing her away, pushing her away, but then we got the reasons as to why he was pushing her away. But then I also feel like we really didn't get to see it after that because, you know, she went out and became a vampire.
Speaker 3:So you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So we didn't really get to see what would have happened once they'd had that confession, to know how deep their love went, whereas I felt like with smoke and annie, I felt like their love and their bond was like really, really like deep and meaningful no, I was gonna say, but that's representative of the times too Mary and Stack wouldn't have been able to be together, right?
Speaker 3:So that's kind of showing it's like even though he did confess his love to her, they would have never been able to be together. At that time. I mean, like one, it was illegal at that time. I mean like one, it was illegal.
Speaker 2:Well, technically, if they stayed in their hometown, she would have been Black, because they knew her as Black, so it would have been legal. But it wouldn't have been safe because people who didn't know would see him with a white woman and then he could have got Emmett Till or something.
Speaker 3:They would have assumed that she was a white woman, but, yeah, so they never would have been able to have that sort of deep anything. Because of all of that, it just isn't safe. So we can't even really show it and we're having this quiet moment so that you know how I feel. But you need, you have to go back to your world and I got to stay in mind type of thing, whereas with smoke and annie they're part of the same community, even though he left a while that, so they're able to explore that deeper relationship. What did you think? That interracial relationship, particularly with the white woman? Um, bringing the community or the black man down, that's initially what I saw. Them, because she's the one that you know gets turned first and brings all of that into the place, um, and kills him, um, so that's what? Uh, that was my initial goal too is like, oh, you know, with with the white girls, there's going to be doom.
Speaker 2:So a lot of people online were interpreting in that same way too um, they were talking about be careful, can you invite to the picnic, and stuff like that. And then some people were like, referring to it as like the tragic mulatto um trope. And then some people were um, comparing her to like the um white savior trope, because you know. It's like oh, you guys have the money problem, I can fix this, you know. So what if smoke said don't go out there and invite them people in, because you know?
Speaker 2:some people were interpreting it that way, and somebody said something that I found really interesting. Um, they said that the Klan was the Republicans and that the vampires were the Democrats.
Speaker 3:Oh, that is interesting, and I'm not mad at it.
Speaker 2:I hope that's not true, but that certainly gave me food for thought, I mean that's a whole thing, but I see where they're coming from. It was definitely food for thought. I was like I never I mean, that's a take I wouldn't have come to on my own- Me either.
Speaker 3:But wow, yeah, you could do a whole thesis on that, but what did? What was your initial thoughts on Mary in that relationship?
Speaker 2:um, famous yours I. I did think he loved her. I didn't initially because initially when he kept pushing her away I thought he was pushing her away because he just didn't like her. But then when he opened up to her in the club, yeah, you know, then I could see okay. So this is why you're pushing her away, because you know, know, you want her to be okay and this isn't the time for y'all's romance, like literally.
Speaker 2:So I saw her as wanting to do the right thing. I saw her as being well-intentioned, intentioned. I didn't like that and I know he invited it because Stack's character, where he's different than Smoke, was like how Smoke was empowering the little girl and teaching her the little girl he has to wash his truck and teaching her how to negotiate for more money and stuff like that. And listening to Annie and supporting Annie and you know what I mean. Like respecting black women, stacked it, a lot of the opposite of that, like the way he was talking to the one man's wife in the cotton field and stuff like that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, he was charismatic, but he was also super disrespectful, you know, know as a character and like in the club, when he said something like I'll get one of these B words to drag you out, and then she was like you taught me how to fight, I'll beat every one of these B's in here.
Speaker 2:I didn't like her disrespecting every Black woman in the club or every woman in general, because that wasn't really cool. But his personality being what it is, it would make sense that, she being his love interest, it would be the woman who would, because if you were the woman who would be offended by him speaking about the women that way, or would correct it, or even if you didn't correct it, at least not feed into it then you're not the kind of woman that would probably date a guy like him. So I understood it for her characterization. I thought she had some bars, though she was a great rapper. Uh, from the you going, you can rob trains and can't you steal this, you know, like if you saw the movie, you know? And then, um, even in the train tracks, with the first thing she said at the train station to him oh, what was it?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah she was like you told me you love me. And then he was like I also told you to stay the hell away from me. And then she was like, yeah, but then you Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, you did something so good, I thought you changed your mind or whatever so hard. I thought you changed your mind and then I was like, okay, this is where we are. I was getting too hot. How do you want it? Vibes?
Speaker 3:what goes through that um intermixing of the past, present and future with the music, um. But there's one character we should also talk about, future Boy. He's kind of the thread of everything.
Speaker 2:I loved him. His talent was otherworldly. I found a lot of I. I found it interesting the church, um, how his dad basically was trying to make him choose, like he literally took his guitar and had it hidden in the church or whatever, and dad, and then at the end of the movie, his dad's like give me the guitar and the guitar literally is what saved his life. You know what I mean. So he wasn't trying to let it go and again, his talent was over, was otherworldly. That was like a gift from God type of voice, super, super talented.
Speaker 2:So it almost seemed sinful to try to deny him a gift given to him by something other. You know what I mean, something other than yourself. So, yeah, I don't know, like I said, sammy did really good. It was his first movie and I wouldn't have known that, having watched it, because he performed fabulously, learned how to play guitar for the movie. I didn't know that. Yeah, they said he learned how in like three months. And, um, they said like one day, on the set, his hand cramped because they literally had him practicing like five hours to sound like he'd been playing for a long time uh-huh, wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:I love that um just, I loved him in perlene.
Speaker 3:That was cute, yes, really I feel bad for her husband now I was like I was wondering, please her husband like what he's not here he wasn't preacher boy that night, was he?
Speaker 2:and they're pushing buttons and what that?
Speaker 3:all that he learned about earlier that day. Yes, so funny because when they were in the car and zach was telling him about the the button the first time I saw it, I kind of missed that conversation. I was like I don't know, maybe I was like thinking or something at the same time. But when I saw it the second time I was like, oh, but at the same time, yes, tell him the right things to do every man in America watching this movie exactly so.
Speaker 3:Thank you, ryan Coogler, for that. Thank you, ryan Coogler. But yeah, and I love how, in the end, with the extra scenes, how it continues with his character, to my understanding is that the very, very end. That's him like he has passed on his natural life and he's in the church since he turned them down.
Speaker 2:Read it that way. That was the one scene in the movie I didn't understand, because I was like why is he young again? Yeah, that's why I thought, why I like the song he's playing the guitar. I was like maybe this was just an outtake they couldn't find room for, so they just tacked it on there. But maybe that one just flew over my head and I dismissed that one because I was like oh, I interpreted like.
Speaker 3:At first I was like I thought the same thing as you oh, this is weird. Why is he young again? But then I'm like, oh, he probably died, and like this is the representation of that.
Speaker 2:But that makes more sense than what I was thinking. The mid-credit scene was great. I liked that, I liked. To me that was like the heart of the movie, that scene, and it humanized Stack's character a lot. And you know, some people who were expecting a straight horror movie didn't like it as much because they felt like it took some of the teeth out of the vampire at the end where he was saying like that was the best night of my life before the sun went down. Last time I saw the sun, last time I got to meet my brother and all that good stuff. But to me it humanized him. My prediction for the sequel, if they do it, is the vampire hunters and Stack. But since we left at the end it looks like we're in the 90s. Then I'm guessing it would probably be like the descendants or the children or grands of those original hunters.
Speaker 3:that's my guess that was the one group I wanted to see again. So, yeah, I would love that, because they show up and they don't come back yeah, because I didn't think I mean to me.
Speaker 2:I didn't think they put it there for no reason, but maybe I'm wrong, but that was my guess and I would like that as a sequel yeah, I thought I read or heard some rumblings about a potential sequel, so that's a good idea.
Speaker 3:So putting that out in the ethos. Um the vampires, right well, I keep forgetting. Honestly, I keep forgetting about the vampires because everything else is so good but, yes, the vampires.
Speaker 2:I like that Remnick was Irish. Remnick, is that how you say it? I think it's Remnick. I like that he was Irish because they were also colonized by Europe and I thought that was an excellent ploy. When he comes to the club Although true, when he's basically like you know this place that you think you bought from these people they're clan members. They're planning on coming back and killing you after they took your money. Basically, you were never going to survive this. I'm going to let you free. You could live forever, Join my club. I thought that was a compelling argument Because if you're living in hell already, it might be tempting to make a deal with the devil, Like, literally, slavery's ended, but most of them are still sharecropping to survive and then they're being paid in wooden nickels and plantation dollars. You can't build generational wealth with that, because it's not even of value outside of that little city or town or the stores that have agreed to take it because they have deals with the plantation owners.
Speaker 3:So you can't build generational wealth.
Speaker 2:You can't pass anything down. They're not really attempting to give you any property ownership because even in this case, where the guys had the money, they're planning on taking it. You know, much like Tulsa and Rosewood when people built wealth and the communities were destroyed by hate. At that time it was hard to build, it was hard to achieve because literally society was pushing back against you and trying to cut you off at the knees before you had the opportunity. So that would definitely have been a tempting argument for me. I don't know about you. How about you? Would you have don fangs? I?
Speaker 3:don't know I.
Speaker 2:I honestly don't know I I might have done things and showed up at some clan rallies.
Speaker 3:Well, well time, um, but you said something, oh, about the irish thing. I loved it because there is a history of the irish and african americans in this country that gets no like nobody really talks about, and I remember, like seeing and reading somewhere that up to like 38 percent of african americans have irish lineage.
Speaker 2:I do not a lot not enough to talk about I do I not a lot. Not enough to talk about. I'm my ancestry. Not enough to talk about. Like one percent or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, teeny tiny percentage well then, maybe you're a part of that number.
Speaker 2:I don't know A teeny tiny percentage, like a hangnail's worth.
Speaker 3:But there is that history there, so that's one of the reasons why I liked it, that layer. But now you've got me thinking. Would I have taken that to you?
Speaker 2:But to me it not only humanized the villain from a writer's perspective, because he's been oppressed and he's, but it also to me like it was a metaphor of like assimilation. And a metaphor of like colonization too, because, like I was colonized, now I'm the colonizer because I'm telling you to join me and I think I'm saving you. So I'm white, savioring it up. I'm now I'm the colonizer because I'm telling you to join me. I think I'm saving you, I'm saving you from those evils. Join me. I just have to kill you first, then you die.
Speaker 3:I've saved you. It's like you end up assimilating and everything that you were goes away, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of what why I like the last scene, because he was like um, basically stack was saying that he felt the freest that day. Last day he saw the sun, last day he was with his brother. So that means that since he's been a vampire for these whatever 80, 100 or how many years it was- right you haven't really felt free.
Speaker 2:You've been, you know, trapped by the night and we know they're vampire hunters. So if I had to guess there was a sequel, you had to do some running over the years. You know, some running and some fighting you have to hide um yeah, can't be out during the day exactly.
Speaker 2:But I thought that was super interesting because, like the cultural appropriation of it all, when it's like I love your music, I love your art, you know you're, I'll have your stories, he says to Sammy, you'll have mine, but who cares that Sammy doesn't consent. Now let me drown you right here so that we can be a part of each other. It was really weird. But, um, how do you see, or did you see, that the film echoing those things, or was that me overthinking again, because I overthink echoing which things, the cultural appropriation and assimilation and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:I saw it. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, that's what the vampires were symbolizing. I thought that's what their symbolization was.
Speaker 2:True, but, like I said, I thought it was an interesting choice to use Irish, specifically because they've been colonized too.
Speaker 3:It's the perfect choice. They've been colonized too. It's the perfect choice. Um, they've been colonized too. So, like he understands that part, and then also like I was saying that history that our cultures have in this country um.
Speaker 2:So I was just like yeah that's like the perfect choice really true, and I loved that in the very first scene, when he's running and he's on fire which fire? Daytime maybe, because I read horror in my mind. I'm thinking vampire. Hello yeah, people, god bless them. We're victims of their own white supremacy and racism. Because they let him in, this stranger. He's offering money and claiming Indians are chasing him. So they let him in because you know they're thinking poor white guy chased by Indians, claiming Indians are chasing him. So they let him in because you know they're thinking poor white guy chased by Indians.
Speaker 3:Then, excuse me, native Americans I'm sorry, I'm always, um, you know, want to use the politically correct in the correct terms but, um, like I said, oh sorry, I was gonna say it depends on who you ask with that, because some people in that culture don't actually like Native American, so but I mean that's the whole thing. I know people that don't like African American.
Speaker 2:They like just call me black, so that's all yeah, I had a friend named Madonna who used to call herself Indian. She lived on a plantation, was Native American or Indian or whatever preferred to be called. But I just don't want to offend anybody, but you know what I mean. But it was just interesting to me that he goes to their house and he can see the clan garb over their shoulder, so he goes in with the narrative they believe and then they let him in and then the guys come, the hunters come to the door who are of native american or indian descent, and they're basically like there's a dangerous guy in there, you're in danger, let me help. And she's like no, now she basically pulls as the shotgun to their face and this, that, that and the third, and she's, just because of her beliefs, thinks they're the bad guys. And I just, I love that the Indians or Native Americans did not push it.
Speaker 3:I love that they were like OK, well, sounds about right, but I love that scene because it's so indicative of everything that's happening right now or that happens, what happening and happened when it. When you talk about the election and stuff, you have people trying to warn other people like this is what's actually going to happen. There's danger here and people not listening because of their beliefs. And right now you know things have happened and it's like, oh, we tried to tell you.
Speaker 2:I don't think it was that they didn't listen. I think it was that they didn't think they'd be a victim of it. I think it was that they thought, well, this is the other person's problem, this won't affect me. But if my groceries go down, yay. That they thought, well, this is the other person's problem, this won't affect me. But if my groceries would go down, yay. And then when it, you know, ended up in them losing jobs and the groceries not going down and prices and inflation actually going up, then they're like, oh oh, oh, oh, shit, this is bad, this isn't what I expected. But I think, since the person had it but I think because he had a first term, I don't think it was that they don't know, because we've seen it before I think it was that they didn't care if they didn't feel like it affected them personally. That's my take. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there were some who didn't know, but I just find that hard to believe, since we had four years of it prior.
Speaker 3:A mix of both. But yeah, but that scene it just really did. That's what I felt of after watching that scene. It's just like I'm trying to tell you, I'm trying to help you and, yeah, because of your thought processes, you're not listening to me.
Speaker 2:just because I'm, I look a certain way right, which happens, um, I remember being in classes in college, um, undergrad, and there was this girl who had a thick philly accent but was freaking brilliant and she would talk in class and they would act like she wasn't saying anything or like they didn't get it until like a white person would second what she said. And then, all of a sudden, it was correct and I'm like hello, she's been right the whole time. You're so into your bias about how she looks and how she speaks that you couldn't really see the fact she was conveying.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that part I liked. What were you thinking about your thought process on the store owners, the Chinese store owners?
Speaker 3:um. Their daughter is hilarious, even though she said nothing, but she said a lot, her like demeanor um.
Speaker 3:But like I said earlier, I think it's like I didn't know that there were like chinese communities in the south um so that was interesting and that and it took the second time I saw the movie that there was a white store and a black store, because I remember the first time I saw it I was like, well, why is the wife over there?
Speaker 3:And then, like the second time, I realized, oh, that's the store for the white people, and then the other stores black people, and it, um, I mean, it's another interesting layer of like, as a and talking about recent times as well um, in a sense, in terms of owning stores, you know, black person probably couldn't have owned a storefront in that area. Um, right, and yet you have the chinese couple who have two, and the white people do buy things from them, whereas if there was a black store there, the white people wouldn't buy anything from them. Um, so those those like racial dynamics that are interesting, um, and then you know, you can get into, like the what is it? In my mind? I'm saying perfect minority.
Speaker 3:That's not what it is model minority, yeah, the model minority, um those sorts of discussions and that sort of thing, so that they can have that other love that and that.
Speaker 2:um, when, like you, did the research after the film and that actually was true at that time a lot of Chinese people came over to work on the railroads and then they were able to get loans and grants and stuff after that that we wouldn't have been able to get.
Speaker 3:So they were able to to be in this position Exactly.
Speaker 2:So they were able to be in those positions exactly so they were able to be in those positions. You know what I mean and you know, um, I thought it was also interesting. I think the husband had a pure involvement and view with the community. I felt like his bond with the brothers seemed genuine, like the friendship with smoke seemed like real. Yeah, and then, like when the stuff hit the fan, it was the wife who was like we gotta go, we ain't sign up for this. But he wasn't like trying to cut and run, you know what I mean, but it was the wife and then she sent him outside yeah, she sent him outside to be turned.
Speaker 3:I think he might did that, were they in the service together. I don't know if I made that up or not. Um, I don't remember.
Speaker 2:I saw the movie twice, as you know, but I don't remember that.
Speaker 3:I thought maybe that's why they had such a strong bond too, because maybe they were in the service together, but I don't know. I could have just made that up in my head. Um, yeah, I always wondered that too. Why did she send him outside?
Speaker 2:Because she saw stuff hitting the fan and then she was like get the car, we're not going. We came here basically to host the party and to this, that and the third, but not for the other stuff. So it was like she was an ally as long as she was profiting off the community, and then, as soon as she couldn't, when the stuff hit the fan, she was like it's time to cut and run, so she sent her husband out there to be turned into a vampire.
Speaker 3:Basically timing, because, like everybody else had already left, something's obviously wrong. Right, there's nobody else out front until you just send him out there by himself, like to me. That was.
Speaker 2:To me, that was just like let's just stay here together, um right, um, but speaking of, and then she was the one who called the vampires in exactly I couldn't totally be mad at her because they did threaten her daughter.
Speaker 2:So I can understand wanting to throw hands at that point, wanting to fight it out. I can understand it. But I could not understand putting my anger above the safety of everyone around me. You know what I mean. So it was like you were aligned with the community as long as you were profiting off the community and then at the end it's like my rage is more important than your actual lives.
Speaker 2:Because while they were trying to make steaks and stuff. They weren't prepared yet. They were trying to cover her mouth. She bit the man's hand and called him inside. But they were different and better than me, because when she started acting irate and acting like she wanted to scream, I would have threw her butt out there to them so I could live till sunrise. I'm like, look, you sent your husband out there, go be with him go be with your husband.
Speaker 3:My whole thing exactly was like after that all played out like I was like what?
Speaker 2:WTF.
Speaker 3:But then, like, like the logic, like I understand as a I'm not a mother, but like as a mother wanting to protect your child, but like, logically, would they have been able to get to her? Like the sun came up, like five minutes later.
Speaker 3:You know, like all that kind of stuff. I'm just like, was it necessary? Um, and then she ends up dying like two seconds late. Like what? Like what are we doing? Um, exactly, so it's okay for you. Like just like you were saying, it's just like your self-interest are more important than anybody else's life in this room, when everybody else is like no but exactly you take it upon yourself to make the decision for everyone else, right? And so, yeah, I felt a way about that yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Well, I, I, like I said I I got the feeling of wanting to do that. You know know what I mean. I can understand that, yeah, any mother would have had that feeling of wanting to, but, yeah, they should have pushed her out the barn door. Look, or knocked her out or something you know that poor drunk guy that got thrown out. She should have been beside him.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, he's not even turned, he just passed out. He took his ass off. She should have been beside him. Oh my God, he's not even turned. He just passed out, he took his ass off excuse me but that was hysterical.
Speaker 2:And when the woman's husband walks back up, now vampire, but she doesn't know it and the other vampire is just killing this man, her husband's just all calm. Got the car ready, babe, you're ready to go. She's like the other vampire right across from killing somebody, she's. She's like, basically like he has no reaction to it. She's a, and he's like, well, why don't you just invite me? And like we can get our stuff together. That was funny. Those are the moments.
Speaker 2:I really loved and Delroy Lindo's character. I loved him from when he was in the car and he's telling that story and he's putting all this emotion in it and then he turns the emotion into like a rhythm, the blues that was beautiful to the. I shat myself. He was priceless. He was great. Every character was great. He was really great. I thought michael b did fabulous. You couldn't even like he. He very much played it like two different people. He did a great job with that.
Speaker 3:He did a wonderful job.
Speaker 2:And did you see the meme where they were like? This is what I mean when I say I want a pair of Jordans.
Speaker 3:Oh, I didn't see that, but yeah, did we miss anybody?
Speaker 2:Did we discuss them all?
Speaker 3:We touched on the main characters. I don't know his name, but the guy that was from Ballers, the tall guy, have you seen the show Ballers? He was the one that was in that. They got from the field and stacked with. Oh, okay, he was really good too, he's hilarious, and after he got turned and tried to come back in, that scene was just hilarious.
Speaker 3:It got to the point where it was just like what is he even talking about? All this random stuff? You know, something's wrong because he's just randomly saying a whole bunch of stuff. And those are the the moments in this movie that I really enjoyed. Um, because sometimes, you know, horror movies can be so serious and stuff or they can be too campy. Um, but this one, like had a really great mix of all those things it did and I love the social commentary like, especially like, rem mick I think it's remick from what I remember, yeah the vampire guy.
Speaker 2:I especially loved what he represented because he wasn't racist. Like I said, he thought he was doing the right thing. He just, you know, was going to kill you. First. He become a vampire. He thought he was saving you for the rapist from the racist by killing you. You know what I mean, so I liked that. That was very interesting. That made him a more compelling villain. Just to be the straight up, I'm a bad guy thing. That was completely here for the scene in the morning when the oh, oh, the scene where Sammy got the unholy baptism and was about to die and saved himself with the guitar. What were your thoughts on that part?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean we should also circle back to the, the actual, uh, the music part. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was funny because I didn't realize that his guitar had a metal part to it. I don't know if Argyle Tart guitars are like that, so when it stuck in Remick's head I was just sitting there laughing. I was like what is that? He's just standing there talking. But it's funny that the thing that the father was saying you know, we'll bring the devil and that kind of stuff is what saved his life.
Speaker 2:His music yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like at the same time it brought the devil, but then you could try and kill the devil with it too. I don't. I didn't understand, though, because after he hit him with it, there was like smoke or something coming out of his head yeah, because I think it was supposed to be silver.
Speaker 2:You know vampire lore and silver oh that one I didn't know.
Speaker 3:okay, yeah, didn't know that because I was like why is there? Because I was like Is there a holy water somewhere? It's over, okay.
Speaker 2:When the guy called him tried to drown him. That's what made the unholy baptism referenced for anybody who didn't see the movie. But yeah, I loved it. I loved the vampires when they were all outside getting down, getting it like Thriller dancing. It was so good it was happening.
Speaker 3:It the vampires when they were all outside getting down, getting it like Thriller dancing. It was fun. That was like a fun that's what I was thinking of like the Thriller moment to the Irish music.
Speaker 2:And, to be honest, I liked that music. Then, when they first came to the door picking poor Robin clean, I was not really here for that song. It was a little odd. It was very odd, yeah, but afterwards when they got outside and everybody was dancing and stuff, they were jamming I'm like I was here for it. I was patting my foot, of course. It was cool.
Speaker 3:Um, um so, just in terms of movies in general, I hope. Oh, that's another thing that did you. You want to talk about the, the scandal, or is it really?
Speaker 3:but scandal but the Variety article that came out first weekend with the headline was basically made it seem like okay, like Sinners is doing well, but it's going to take a long time for them to make the money back for the movie. So it was kind of downing the movie when it was actually having a great weekend. Um, right, and I loved that celebrities actually push back on them like, um I think ben stiller was the main one um, patrick schwarzenegger said something. It's just like these are the this like when we talk about allies, this is what you do, because obviously there was hypocrisy in that headline and that article because someone posted similar budget movie.
Speaker 3:Was it Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? Tarantino movie had a similar budget, same type of deal, made less money in its opening weekend, but got this praise from the very same publication. Um, and so people put those two things together and it's just like, okay, well, the movie with the white cast, oh so, great weekend, or whatever. But then the movie with the black cast that made a little more money, oh well, you know, it's going to take them so long to get the money back.
Speaker 2:Blah, blah, blah and, mind you, that was like 45 or 46 million opening weekend and that was before the box office had closed on sunday when they were paid, and that was, mind you, just in the us when they made that comment. But basically it was like like, yeah, I had a good weekend, but who knows, like you said, how long it's going to take them to pay it back or something to that effect, whereas with the other film it was like, oh, they're off to a great start, because opening weekend, really Sunday, not even closed out, and that was just domestically. It's still going to be playing everywhere else too and it's in less theaters than a lot of.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and they said it was like the highest grossing non-IP movie since before COVID, since 2019. So far in opening week, well, the highest grossing opening weekend since 2019. So, and then this week, the following weekend basically usually movies have a drop after opening weekend and they said it had a much smaller drop than normal movies typically do. Yeah, in the second week, and already.
Speaker 3:They're at like $120 million domestically. I think I read it was like $160 million worldwide right now, which means that they're going to make back the money in a shorter amount of time than the publication was trying to make it seem, and it's a bright light.
Speaker 3:I'll just say to Hollywood People want to see original things, they want to see good, original movies. Everyone's kind of tired out with the IP. They're not even good anymore Like they used to be. So, yeah, hopefully they'll Take a real clue from it. I did read an article that Hollywood always ends up Taking the wrong message From things Like with Barbie. The message was let's make more like movies about toys instead of let's make more female led empower movies. Um, true so, and the diversity. I had originally read that, um, some publication was playing down the diversity of the audience that has come to see Sinners, or saying that, oh, you know, if they think more about something, about like widening their audience, maybe it'll do better. But then people were like. The audience that I went to was super diverse, like everyone was there and where I was, it was predominantly white.
Speaker 2:Don't get me wrong. Black people were there representing, but the side of town I live on has a lot more white people and they were all in the theater with me trying to make you vampire, so it's just like everybody is going to see this movie.
Speaker 3:It's not just because a cast is predominantly black doesn't mean that only Black people are going to see the movie.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And the brilliant thing he did, ryan, was he came in the gate with he did Fruitvale Station, like his first one, which was really good.
Speaker 2:But he came in the gate with like the IP things that we love, like Black Panther, wakanda, forever, Creed, which is from the Rocky franchise, and he built up that audience with those before he stepped out with his own original content and stuff and his deal was awesome. Bro, we should all have his agent because they basically in 20 or 25 years they have to give him back the rights to the movie so it stays in his family. And on top of that he gets paid. Before they recoup for the movie, before they recoup what they spent to make the movie, he gets paid. He gets paid a percentage off the door of their sales from day one and he gets paid gross off of the gross sales, not the net. So his agent did that thing and that's been getting a lot of headlines too, because people were like reporting it, like it was a bad thing, like they were like well, hollywood shaking because of the deal he got and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and other directors have had those type of deals.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, usually it's the big name, the powerhouse directors that are bringing in that kind of money. But, like I saw this interview With them, exactly I saw this interview with him where it felt to me like the woman was almost saying like his deal was a negative, like her tone to him was almost like, you know, like he'd done something wrong. And I thought his response was brilliant because he was like I'm under 40 and my films have grossed over 6 billion. And then he was like exactly. And then he was like there was, you know, nothing wrong with me wanting to keep the content that I wrote, that created, that I created, you know, in my family, basically. And then he was like like and other directors have had similar types of deals.
Speaker 2:And then she was like well, if other people had this deal, why is it making such a big deal about you having it? And he was like I have my ideas. And then she was like well, what are they? And he just laughed. And when he laughed, we all knew exactly what he was talking about. He didn't have to say it, we knew exactly what he was talking about. You didn't have to say it, we knew exactly what he was talking about.
Speaker 2:Ask that question, geez, yeah but it was not only the asking, like I said, it was the tone in the asking to me felt like almost like she didn't feel he deserved it you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like, yeah, just from black panther and wakanda, like forever, those alone, exactly, you know? Um, so it's just like y'all they're acting like he just joined, like he just showed up, and it's like no, he's been exactly many years and everything he's done has hit it. So what is the?
Speaker 2:problem, exactly, it's weird and honestly, I respect his pen so much that I'd likely go see everything, anything with his name attached, just because exactly he's shown me that what has his name attached is going to give me quality and a good experience with the movies right and that's why people show up to the movie exactly and spend their hard-earned money exactly.
Speaker 3:hollywood keeps whining about people not going to the movies Y'all not putting out quality, that's true.
Speaker 2:All right, I'll come out the closet. I wasn't going to tell you, but I saw it three times In the theater.
Speaker 3:Look at it If the industry doesn't take a huge hint from this. It's lost, because this is what y'all need to be doing.
Speaker 2:This is what people want to see True, the other controversy that I read about in connection with this film was that a lot of or I won't say a lot because I don't know that it's a lot, but some Latino and Latina creators were people, were on the Internet upset because, while there was diversity and representation, they didn't see themselves repped in this, and I found that interesting on a couple of fronts.
Speaker 2:Number one if you saw Wakanda Forever, there was a lot of rep in the Latino and Latina community Right. And number two, that wasn't the story he was telling this time. When I saw Crazy Rich Asians, when I saw Selena, when I saw a lot of different stories that people told that were freaking, fabulous and fantastic about their culture every film doesn't have to include other cultures if that's not the story you're telling this time. While I love diversity and I love rep, when I see it, it's not always fitting. If I'm writing a story about my family, for example, if it's about my family, then it would look like the people in my family.
Speaker 2:If I'm writing a story that's about the broader world, of course you know more people from the broader world be included, so I felt like that was kind of misplaced. I think, though, maybe because there was so much rep in the last film, they probably went in excited, thinking that they would have the same experience this time, and this time it was a different story. So maybe that's where the disappointment came from. Plus, right now they're under fire with everything going on politically too, so maybe they kind of needed a bit of a pick-me-up and they were like thinking this was going to be it and they were disappointed.
Speaker 3:I mean, like looks like you were saying not everyone is going to be in everything right. But I do understand like okay, there's a lot of representation in this movie and it's not there's kind of like the one group that's not in. But at the same time like I mean I don't know, but what is the history of the latino culture, latino cultures in that area?
Speaker 2:that's true, because in that area, in that time, we don't know how many were there, or if they weren't or not like. That's true.
Speaker 3:That's true. We do know there were Black communities. I've learned that there was a Chinese community, the Native American communities were there, the white people were, but I don't know. I could be speaking out of pocket.
Speaker 2:And I did like I have a second and I did like that they had the Chinese representation in this and I liked that they were represented as the store owners because, let's be honest, there's a lot of that in the Black community, where there's a lot of Asian or Arab or Middle Eastern store owners in our communities. So it was nice to see that. And I also liked the conversation on like allyship or performative allyship that it has people having, because that's a thing.
Speaker 3:So I mean, this is what I love about film and what I love about being a storyteller, because this is exactly why I wanted to be a writer. You can reflect all of this in their stories. And then letting in vampires and what that represents and all those kind of things. So you start thinking about your own allyship as a person, allyship as a community, and to me, that's what storytelling is about. For me, that's why I got into it. Kudos to Ranko. Storytelling is about, for me, that's why I got into it.
Speaker 2:Who knows to write the case that went to the supreme court to shoot down affirmative action.
Speaker 3:The recent one yeah yes, and a part of that is particularly when you talk about immigrants not understanding the history of the culture you're coming into Right, and that makes it even sadder.
Speaker 2:Right Because, as some, because it's white supremacists propped you up to shoot down a program that benefited you.
Speaker 3:That benefited you and you think you're knocking down particularly black people, right, um? But then it was also this community is the reason you're allowed into the country, right? Like that whole history of black people fighting for the, for chinese people, um, to be able to come back into the united states.
Speaker 2:I don't remember all the names of the I don't remember if the particular people I was talking about in that case were chinese or not.
Speaker 3:I just remember they were asian I remember correctly, I think they were korean, but I'm just saying like because of that, that also allowed other asian people to come in true.
Speaker 2:And then like I think of, like the tawana brawley case, because I'm that old when she was in a store shopping and the Asian store owner shot her for like some orange juice, and so then it was like all this chaos in the newspapers and stuff.
Speaker 3:So I think some of that and, like I've read about this um, in that area, um, as the the communities were trying to rebuild and build unity between each other, a lot of the korean immigrant community didn't know the history of the oppression of black people in the us and then, learning that history, they started to understand why certain things were happening. And and it wasn't just I don't like you until I'm doing this thing to you, it's this whole system of things.
Speaker 2:So that's why I was saying about like we all need to like we need to learn about each other Understand what's really good, and I wasn't bringing up those other situations to like disparage anybody of the Asian background or any Korean Chinese anybody. I was bringing it up really to say that there's like a thick, complicated, layered history between cultures that if you read newspapers and history books you can track. And so I think for those reasons and because the story he wrote and where it was at, these were the people in those locations, and because the story he wrote and where it was at, these were the people in those locations, I think those are the reasons that, maybe why he was speaking to this in this film.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. Yeah, that's what the focus was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying I'm trying to probably very poorly for the people who were like upset because they didn't see themselves in it explain that you know, there's a history there and a complicated history there. I think that's why he wanted it to go that way in this particular film. Then, with the location, we don't know. To me that's where it was coming from. I think they felt like it looked a lot like From Dusk Till Dawn, which was a Latino vampire movie.
Speaker 2:I have not seen. I take that back. I probably saw it, but if I did, it would have been way back when it came out. Yeah, so I don't remember the plot enough to know if it was like a, you know an echo of that, because we're all inspired by something. So I mean he said he was inspired by the stand I don't, I didn't see them the stephen king book, I don't watch it, Particularly Stephen King stuff I cannot.
Speaker 2:I can see that because Stephen King writes long books and basically the part he described as being like the stand was how he does the character exploration first and then the drama kicks off. That's very Stephen King-esque. So you know what I mean. How, like the first half of the movie, you're getting to know Smoke Snack and the Jackson community and then later on the vampires. That to me I could see because that seemed very Stephen King-esque. Once he said it I would never picture it on my own, but when he said it in an interview I was like, oh, I can see that.
Speaker 3:Did you say Stephen King writes long books or song books, long books.
Speaker 2:Long, a lot of Stephen King books. I'll give you Fairy Tale, for example, because I'm a Stephen King fan, I read the whole thing, but if it was any other author I would not have made it to the end, because it was so. It was a long book and it was a lot of character development before the action kicked off, and my attention span is not that, so I would put it down.
Speaker 3:But because I love Stephen King and I know he's going to give me the payoff I want, I patiently waited for the the payoff, you know. Yeah, the slow burn that's the one of the criticisms I've heard from people about sinners. Um, was that like that? It didn't like. It felt slow to them in the beginning. Then you get to the vampires and they didn't like that.
Speaker 2:Um, that's why, when he told me that that was his inspiration, I was like I can totally see that. Like well, he didn't tell me. I saw it can't be. I don't know personally, like he told me, like he was over yesterday.
Speaker 3:Oh hi, ryan, would you like some tea, sweet tea might be something similar with, I don't remember, from dust because, like I think the when I saw it was in the 90s. But like um, when you talk about any type of artist, you are drawing inspiration from certain things, just like with the irish dance and everything you know. We both thought of thriller and that sort of thing. So it's not, you know you. There's that vague um, what's the word I'm looking for? Not representation? A vague allude, allude, shin to it, allusion.
Speaker 2:There's that vague allusion and true, and I learned. I didn't know this either, but I learned that the guy at the end that's playing the guitar, pretending to be future sammy, is an actual blues player oh yeah and he apparently his uncle, because he got the idea for the movie.
Speaker 2:Well, part of it because his uncle was a huge blues fanatic and he was working on creed. So he missed his uncle dying and his funeral and he felt terrible and he said he would listen to the blues when he thought of his uncle. And then the story idea started coming marinating and, um, so the guy is actually his uncle's favorite blues player.
Speaker 2:So I thought that was a cute story yeah and he said that he, um, when he reached out to him he was like I had my whole pitch ready to give him to try to get him to be in the movie. And then when I showed up his house, his kids and his grandkids are there and I got my pitch ready and then he was like basically like yeah, my grandkids told me that whatever you ask I need to say yes to. I love that. But I guess his kids and grandkids knew what Ryan Coogler is to the culture. They were like, yeah, you need to do whatever exactly, and then people will look him up that was cute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought it was a great film we'll watch it again soon it was a great film, great experience. It was a great night for AMC because I'm sure they did well throughout all this. Warner Brothers there was one person who had some complaints. She loved the movie, but she works at the theaters.
Speaker 3:My daughter and she was like I'm tired of cleaning up after these crafts she loved the movie, though that's another thing I loved about the movie the communal experience it reminded me of when I went to see Get Out, where people like you're laughing together. You're like yelling at the screen together, like shut the door, like I don't know that's. I love that type of like communal theater experience.
Speaker 2:And I love the way that, like, social media was coming alive with it too, like everybody had their different takes and stuff like that, and that's always cool, yes, yeah. So I'm gonna ask you one last time okay remix at your door right now oh my god he's a knocking, he's offering you's offering you forever. What are you going to say?
Speaker 3:I'm going to say no, because there's some people I want to see again. And I can't do that if I'm living forever.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:What about you?
Speaker 2:While the thought of being around my children forever would be awesome, the thought of living forever in our current political climate, I don't know I will say that I think it's making great art already. I think this movie is fabulous. I think all the unfortunate crap that's going on right now that people are struggling with, I think that tragedy and hard times are great inspiration for artists, and I think films like this and the times we're in are just going to inspire so much more wonderful art and I can't wait to see it all.
Speaker 3:Yes, I just I want the bad times to end, and if art has to end because of that, so be it very true very true, very true.
Speaker 2:But what's crazy, too, though, that's true. What's crazy, too, though, is, like I told you to me, it makes me feel like I have to speak to it, don't you like? As an artist, like I told you, I never wanted to. I would go the furthest, like I would do it in essays, but like not in stories. I would go the furthest away from this because it's emotional labor and it's heavy. And who wants to talk about these heavy topics?
Speaker 2:yeah but then, when stuff starts happening, you get fired up and then you're like okay, yeah, now you want to silence my community. Let me get louder.
Speaker 3:Taking away our museum Like dang.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's crazy. Like that's crazy. We're not. I don't know what delusion they're under, but nobody's going backwards.
Speaker 3:I went to a fight backwards. I was excited, like I hadn't even gotten down to see African-American museum yet and I was excited that they were going to do Latinx museum like an Asian-American museum, like these are history that I want to know, and like I want to see, and like why are we hiding this? This is our country, what are we? What are they? What are people afraid of? Um, I don't understand that at all.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's that they're afraid. I think it's that a they don't want their flaws being shown to the world. They want to expose a myth of what America is instead of the American reality. And. B I think it's easier to justify doing negative things to people when you try to hide their humanity.
Speaker 3:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:So I think part of that is just part of dehumanization too. I'm trying to dehumanize people. I don't think. If you can see their full scope of their humanity, their history, their everything, then it makes it harder to justify some of your behaviors. And did you hear about these children, American citizen children, getting deported? Now Editing JD here In this part I'm talking about some news footage I saw that talked about children who were born on American soil but whose parents were undocumented, and the children were basically deported with their parents. These American citizen children. Terrible times.
Speaker 3:The movie encapsules that, so it's hard not to.
Speaker 2:Very true.
Speaker 3:Bring that in, because that's just a part of it.
Speaker 2:Very true.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that is our Southern Gothic 2.0 Vampires Episode. If you Haven't seen Sinners Hopefully we didn't spoil it too much For you go and see it episode. If you haven't seen Sinners hopefully we didn't spoil it too much for you go and see it. If you've seen it, go and see it again so it can continue to break records. Thank you for joining us again and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:We'll see the movie, the great movie, 10 out of 10. Thank you, guys, for joining us. Bye.
Speaker 4:That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Moyer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.