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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
A Writer’s Journey: Black Representation in Vampire Stories from The Vampire Diaries to Interview with the Vampire
The supernatural world of vampires has captivated audiences for generations, but how these stories represent Black characters reveals much about our evolving cultural consciousness. In this thought-provoking episode, we dissect three influential vampire shows through a craft and representation lens, tracking a remarkable evolution from tokenism to authentic storytelling.
Starting with The Vampire Diaries' Bonnie Bennett, we examine how this powerful witch was relegated to a perpetual supporting role—repeatedly dying to save her white friends while being denied the romantic storylines and character development afforded to others. Despite Kat Graham's compelling performance, Bonnie's character exemplified the "magical Black friend" trope, complete with European-based magic systems that ignored potential connections to African or African-American traditions.
True Blood's Tara Thornton marked progress with her direct confrontation of racial issues (memorably asking a vampire if he'd owned slaves) and fuller backstory. Yet the show still trapped her in the "angry Black woman" stereotype and ultimately disrespected her character with an unceremonious off-screen death—a stark contrast to how white characters' storylines concluded.
The conversation peaks with AMC's Interview with the Vampire, which reimagines Louis as a Black man in early 20th century New Orleans. This adaptation demonstrates how powerful storytelling can be when a character's racial identity informs rather than incidental to their journey. Louis emerges as a fully-realized protagonist whose experiences as a Black man directly shape his vampire transformation.
For writers crafting characters outside their cultural experience, these examples offer valuable lessons in authenticity, research, and the importance of sensitivity readers. We discuss how representation isn't just about inclusion but about creating characters with cultural specificity and genuine depth.
Subscribe to Craft Chat Chronicles for more insightful conversations about writing craft, representation in fiction, and the evolving landscape of storytelling. Visit jdmayal.com for show notes, writing resources, and upcoming workshop information.
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
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Watch episodes on YouTube as well.
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Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.
Speaker 2:In this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles, we are going on a writer's journey with good friends and good writers. Enjoy, hey guys, welcome. Today I'm going to be going on a lovely journey with my dear, sweet, intelligent, kind, wonderful, charming friend, jay Marie. Before we get started with today's topic, I just wanted to check in with you and see what's new. So what have you been working on this week? What's been going on with you this week, jay?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm continuing to work on the story that you and I have been talking about. So it's something a script that I had written a few years ago that I'm reworking, and then an extra special detail about that I won't share now, but maybe later about something else I'm doing with it, but I'm working on this story and I've been using this craft book called Story Genius, which is a book that we used in our MFA program, and it's really helping me clarify the third rail type things, the internal struggles that are going on with my protagonist and to connect to the bigger story. And I had two really fruitful writing sessions this week which helped me connect some of the historical social things in the US that are part of the bigger story to her internal struggles and it made me very happy and it's going to make a lot of the other things that happen more exciting and clear and what I really wanted from it to begin with. So it's been a very um, good writing week, not stressful, like fun it was. It felt fun Like it should be.
Speaker 2:I've had a pretty good week. Um, writing wise, I've been doing more revision than anything. Um, writing wise, I've been doing more revision than anything and finally started the first chapter of book two in the Heart Scam Bit series. I was struggling to tear myself away from something else I was working on because I was loving it, but now I'm starting to get into the groove and getting into the love with book two in the Heart Scam Bit series and. But I also wanted to clear something up.
Speaker 2:I spoke in a couple episodes about how I did this Black History Month display and I displayed these different books by Black authors and things like that, and then I had the covers of some of them laminated and hung up as well and the hate you gave was taken off of the display and the cover picture was taken down. And this was like around the time we're at the job we were being talked to about what's the process if someone challenges a book and how, like different claim changes in the social and political climate might affect us. Job wise, like with the Department of Education and libraries, or libraries in a lot of places are through the Department of Education and stuff like that. So with all this stuff in mind and them talking about how people you know try to narrow politically and in courts. You know the scope of what goes on our shelves and how we're pushing back against that constantly. When I saw that, I thought that it was intentional because that book deals with police brutality. So then I was feeling like I was censored and I was all in my feels for a couple of days. Actually I didn't say anything, of course, but I was like silently stewing in my feels because I was like, because it was that particular book, and then it was replaced by a fantasy book and the picture was down. And if the picture had alone been down, I would have thought, well, maybe the picture fell.
Speaker 2:But when the picture was down and the book was gone and then it was replaced by a fantasy, I was like what the hell? And I was very surprised because, like I said, like I told you before, most people I work with are allies and supporters of free speech and stuff like that and the right to read. So I was very surprised by it. And then I discovered it wasn't what I thought at all, because employees come in one door, the back door and the public comes in the front and basically someone had done a display where they were talking about, like, novels that the staff love and staff picks, and they took that one off of my black history month and put it on that display by the front door and basically made it my pick, because if it came off my display so they knew it was a book I was, you know, fond of, yeah, so then it was like this whole time I'm silently stewing and then by the front door, which is the door that staff doesn't use, which is the first thing everyone would see when they came in, they had it it there.
Speaker 2:So then I felt better and relieved by that because you know, I wasn't being censored. I had been stewing for nothing With all the verbiage that had been going on at work and them trying to prepare us for whatever negativities may come. That was what, the first thing that came in my head. So I'm happy to report that in this case that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3:Well, that's good, I mean, that's really great. But it's understandable why you might think that way, because basically, it's not that they just even like, took it down and put it somewhere else. It got replaced where, like I would think, if they were just going to take it, they were just going to take it and put it wherever they're going to put it, and maybe that would be missing from the display. And then you might be like, oh, what happened to something? And the fact that no one said, oh, we're doing this, so it's going to be up here. So I mean it's understandable, but it's good that you're able to, you know, clear it up and all is well.
Speaker 2:All is definitely well. So today we're going to be talking about, like Southern Gothic horrors and vampires, and specifically Black vampires as well. I say as well because we can talk about all the vampires and that stuff too. But the shows that we chose not the Vampire Diaries, they don't really have any strong Black vampire representation, but they do have Bonnie Vembit, bonnie Vembit, bonnie Bennett, who was the black witch on that show, and then we also chose true blood and the remake of interview with a vampire to be our um topics of the day. We're going to be talking about southern gothic and vampires and we're going to be exploring it from a writing and craft perspective, when time evolves and consciousness evolves and I'm not going to pretend like I didn't love all of these shows at the time that they were out, yeah, but when you look back on things with a modern lens, sometimes it changes your perspective on things. So that's what we're trying to do today. So let me start with the Vampire Diaries and first of all shout out to Kat Graham, who killed it as Bonnie Bennett, and she was one of the most redeeming things about that character, because the writing they could have done way better by Bob. But, yeah, Kat Graham was fabulous as an actress.
Speaker 2:The problem I had with looking back on the show now with a modern perspective and, mind you, like I said, when it came out, I loved it. I didn't see this stuff. But looking back now, all these years later, more mature perspective on the things, the problem I see with the way they wrote the character was they made her the Black best friend trope. She didn't have a lot of, especially in the earlier season. I think it was like season six when they started giving her a little more agency and more story. But she didn't really have like backstory and stuff and it was like her whole life was to help magically and die repeatedly for her white castmates you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And these vampires who, if you watch the show, predominantly only came to her when they really like needed something. It was always can you do this? Can you do this? One time Damon is like will you risk everything for Elena, would you even die for her? Or something like that I'm paraphrasing. It was like he said yes, exactly, and at first it's like okay, save the cat, you know, we're sacrificing for your other castmates to prove, to make you a likable character. But then it just went on and on so much to where it was like is she suicidal? Does she have a death wish? They're not even real friends to ask her to die repeatedly for it. I mean, like like we're friends, I wouldn't come to you and say repeatedly, put your life on the line, you know what I'm saying and I wouldn't offer to be Exactly.
Speaker 2:And the worst of it. There was a couple of worst of it, but like when she was in the prison, world and life just went on, she wasn't gone. And then when they treated her like she wasn't as desirable or attractive as the other cast members which is crazy, because Cady Graham is drop dead gorgeous, gorgeous, yeah, but like they didn't give her a love interest forever. The first guy that she really showed interest in was basically like you're desperate, it's an actual conversation. He was basically a bad, a villain, and he was like well, you're so desperate, you made this easy. And then when they had her with Jeremy Elena's brother, that was a significant relationship. It felt like at first I thought they were kind of mismatched but I warmed to it. Then he cheated on her with his dead ex-girlfriend after she had died to save him.
Speaker 3:Who died to save him, bonnie did.
Speaker 2:Bonnie again sacrificed her life, so that Jeremy could live right.
Speaker 3:Oh boy.
Speaker 2:And he cheats on her. She's the only character in the whole series that got cheated on, the whole only main character in a show all about romance and vampires. They never gave her a significant romance. And then when she finally gets Enzo, who's supposed to be like the love of her life guy, they kill him too, because they killed off a lot of her romance, her love interest too. But they kill him too because they killed off a lot of her romance, their love interest too. But they kill him too. But then he was her. She was his third pick. He liked caroline. Before that he had a thing for damon's mom, like she was the third pick and, um, even he made a comment one time to her early on before they got together, where he was like you were acting like the kind of person who's never been fought for. And then it was like, wow, screw you.
Speaker 2:Writers like y'all just wow we're trying to brainwash us into thinking that this girl is like unattractive and undesirable. And have you seen her? Like, you know what I mean. And then they would have these events and things where the other girls got to be all glam and in these, like you know, like elegant, like dances and shit, so you'd see a lynx in the gowns and the hair.
Speaker 2:But you didn't really see Kat featured in those ways and in those lights most of the time. And then, on top of that, like to make it more sinister, some of these parties were parties, were like celebrating the founders and celebrating the town, and we're talking about virginia and pre-slavery time, so we have like a gone with the wind themed party and it was like the glorification of the period of slavery. And um, when you couple that with the fact that their only Black main character keeps killing herself to save the white people, you know what I mean. In a show that's glorifying slavery, it's like all these glaring, glaring missteps and missed opportunities. And it's a shame because Bonnie Bennett was a badass witch and she deserved so much better writing. She deserved deeper, more meaningful relationships, relations. If you didn't see her. She lived with her dad.
Speaker 2:You didn't see him for seasons, right, or her house, like for his multiple seasons so it was just like so lacking and I felt like bonnie crawled so tara could walk, because tara did have more agency than bonnie and she came with her own backstory. Tara in true blood excuse me, let's not say you mean true blood.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, yeah, but and she came with her own backstory, tara in True Blood. I was going to say you mean in True Blood.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, yeah. But she, she came with her own black story. She had like her own history and stuff. They did get into some angry black woman tropes but Tara was still engaging and likable and you know she came and they still gave her the same thing where she wasn't considered the desirable. You, she was always pining for suki's brother but he was screwing everything else I mean he was not to be desired anyway.
Speaker 3:No, but I'm just saying in general.
Speaker 2:And she had another thing, another gorgeous actress. So I was like do you people have eyes? What a missed opportunity. You know what I mean. What are your thoughts on those two? And then I feel like, um, so if, if bonnie crawled so tara could walk, because tara was a little better, but it was still flawed in some ways. Then tara walked so that louis could run, because, yeah, it's a more modern show and so it has a lot less of that but he's also a man, so there's that to figure in as well.
Speaker 3:Um, so let me back up a little bit because, uh, the vampire diaries was the one show of the three that I never really watched and, to be honest, I didn't know there was a black character on it. I just thought it was because, you know, in the promotions I saw, ok, we have these two vampires and then Nina Deprov's character, the main girl there. But then when you were talking about it, so I did take a look at some of the episodes and I was like this is why one of the reasons I stopped watching cw stuff. Um, because yeah, there's always the.
Speaker 3:The black characters are usually story devices instead of characters, instead of full, well-rounded characters like you were talking about. They're there to be supplements to whatever the other characters' journeys are and not have any real journeys of their own. I mean, it seems like later on they tried to do some stuff with Bonnie's character, but at that point it was like was anybody even really watching the show, like in season seven or whatever that was? Um, so, but again, this was I don't know when did that premiere? Early 2000s, um, let me add what you just said real quick.
Speaker 2:Sure, even when they added all more things to bonnie's character, it was shady as fuck, though excuse my language because they had her life linked to Elena in the Sleeping Beauty show. So Elena, the main character for six seasons, like goes into this coma and Bonnie's only alive because Elena's in a coma. But that was because Nina left the show.
Speaker 3:That's what I was going to ask. Nina left the show right. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:But in doing that then they turn the fandom against Bonnie because then it's like well, nina's gone because you're alive. So people are like rooting for her death in a certain community because there was that community who wanted Elena with Damon. And then, more sinister is, if you actually read the books, in the books Bonnie ends up with Damon. Bonnie has a whole book that she narrates in the book series. So she was a much more prominent, did everything they could to keep her from being with Damon and, you know I'm sorry, in the series series so she was a much more prominent, did everything they could to keep her from being Damon and you know I'm sorry, in the series they made her Black and, like I said, did everything they could to keep her from Damon. And I'm like I wonder if that would have been the case if she had been a white actress.
Speaker 3:Probably not. And interestingly enough I felt like was it Ian Somerhalder? That was Damon? He and Kat Graham, in the few episodes that I saw, had natural chemistry, as you know, as actors. So I was like that would have been a really interesting storyline if they had gone that route. But there was something about that time where they weren't really doing interracial relationships particularly a black woman white man relationships, particularly a Black woman white man that I think scandal in recent times really pushed that forward. So now people see that it's not a thing anymore. But yeah, I don't understand why the writers' rooms are so scared about those types of things. I bet people would have wanted to see that because from what I saw those two had great chemistry just as actors. That storyline I never read the book but that storyline I feel like would have been incredibly interesting than what was happening.
Speaker 2:What was happening felt unrealistic to me, because Kat Graham and Ian are trapped in a prison world for a long time just the two of them and they're supposedly best friends on the show. But you got a hot best friend. You know what I mean. You're trapped alone with them forever, no other man, no other woman on the face of the planet, and nothing happened, like it wasn't giving a lot of realism.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's not realistic at all, especially like they're both hot. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:There's no realism there, you know, and they're best friends, so the bond has already started at that point. You know what I mean, I don't know. So it was like to me it felt like they were actively avoiding giving after, like, when I say it was to the point where it was like almost suicidal and ridiculous the amount of time she died. She, her grandmother, died in a helping her help Elena, um, her father was murdered in front of her. They never gave her the opportunity to grieve on screen for these things. She just go away for a couple episodes, come back when she dies for Jeremy and Jeremy's alive. Then it's like well, enjoy your summer, jeremy. Her ghost like well, enjoy your summer, jeremy, and Jeremy's alive. Then it's like well, enjoy your summer, jeremy. Her ghost like well, enjoy your summer, jeremy, and don't tell anyone. So everybody's going along their merry little life. And what crappy friends are they that they think she's like away on vacation somewhere but she's not posting or calling or reaching out and you're not inquiring about her at all.
Speaker 2:The only version she did. Yeah, like you don't know she's dead. What kind of crappy friends are you? And then, when they finally discover she dies, when Caroline's mom dies, they have this elaborate, gorgeous funeral in this church and it's beautiful. You have all the teary-eyed characters. When they discover Bonnie's dead, she gets a tree stump in the woods and they're like standing around there talking about how she helped them. It was so ridiculous, showing me how much they cared about her.
Speaker 3:Yes, it is incredibly ridiculous because, like, what are we doing? But just like you said and that's another thing about the Black trauma stuff that I really get tired of it's just like we have whole other lives, like everyone has their bits of trauma and things that happen. Like that's life. Can we get some joy? Like what is she into? Let her have some joy. Let her have a real boyfriend who actually likes her and who's not going to ask her to die for him and will realize if she does die, or whatever it is. You know what I mean. Like let her have some fun with Damon.
Speaker 2:Like what, why, why, anyway, yeah, caroline and all the other characters got so much better, like they had multiple relationship partners and relationship arcs and she didn't. And then even the way they created the character, like they would talk about her ancestor, who was Catherine, who is Elena's doppelgangers.
Speaker 3:In the past.
Speaker 2:Catherine was the vampire that changed the boys into vampires and she looks just like Elena, but they would always talk about Bonnie's ancestor being Catherine's handmaid. We're talking about pre-slavery time. She was her slave, so this handmaid and shit.
Speaker 3:I've never seen that.
Speaker 2:Really, that's what you got.
Speaker 3:Well, were they trying to do? Was the Civil War going on at that time I can't remember the dates, or was it just ended?
Speaker 2:There were scenes where it was during the Civil War. So this was like show was like would dive into pre-Civil War and then some during the flashbacks.
Speaker 3:OK, because I remember, like she's like riding in the carriage with her, and I was like she would not be dressed like that. Riding in the carriage with her, she's her slave. Like let's be real. So that kind of stuff too. Like it's just like, oh, let's just glaze over this fact, so that kind of stuff too.
Speaker 2:Like it's just like, oh, let's just glaze over this fact. And it's like, on one hand, you're glorifying it with the Gone, with the Wind parties and you know all these flashbacks to the period where you're only showing what you think is the grandeur, but you're not showing the other side of the coin, but then, on the other hand, you're ignoring it because you're not calling her a slave, you're calling her a handmaiden, you know what I mean, or whatever. And then not addressing it in any way, shape or form, but constantly murdering your only Black lead to save the white people around her. And I loved how True Blood in their episodes, early episodes.
Speaker 2:Tara got right to that, when Suki and her vampire are sitting there Straight out.
Speaker 3:Did you own any slaves? Exactly that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:And that would be what I would want to know. You know what I mean. You were around 100 years ago. What were you?
Speaker 3:doing. Right and everyone's acting like, like. Oh, he seems like a very kind gentleman, okay, but you were around during this time, so exactly, yeah so at least they took that on more head-on and they um addressed racism.
Speaker 2:The elephant in the room with that character. I liked that about tara. Um, I found tara amusing thing.
Speaker 3:I always had a love-hate relationship With the way they characterized Tara, because I loved okay, we've got this strong black woman character and she's funny and great and strong, but at the same time she's still this angry black woman trope and the best friend to all the white people trope, um, and in comparison to lafayette um, who's fun, loving and everything, it's just like. Why does she have to be again like the angry black woman um that always annoyed me with her character? Um, but at the same time, like you said, she had backstory. We know about her family. She's an integral part of the weave, of everything that's going on in the characters, especially like in the first several seasons, um, when she becomes a vampire, things get a little weird with her um, and I was very unhappy with how they killed her off um, but particularly because because she was a main, integral character from the beginning, if we're going to kill a character like that, it needs to be epic, it needs to be something remarkable and like she was killed off screen and it's just like wait what?
Speaker 3:It's very disrespectful um, and I can't remember, but I feel like there was something going on with rutina wellesley in that show at the same time. I don't know if she wanted to be off the show or I can't. I can't fully remember, so don't quote me on that. So it felt like the people making the show did that on purpose as a disrespect to her and I literally stopped watching the show at that moment and I still haven't watched that last season because I was so annoyed and it's just like, really, this is what we're going to do. Especially after she was already not in as many episodes. They started focusing so much on all these other random characters that they started bringing in towards like the second half of the the show run. Um, she wasn't around as much, um, and I kind of felt like her storylines weren't all that great, and then you just you kill her off screen randomly. It's just weird.
Speaker 1:It's something you don't do.
Speaker 2:That's exactly how they did and they it was the opposite of the vampire galleries in that way, because with Bonnie it was around season six, that you know when. When Elena left the show because the actress left, then they started oh well, we've done everything for six years with the other people. Let's see what we can do with Bonnie, who we've ignored all this time. Let's start giving her some storyline. And yeah, with Tara it was the other way, the opposite. She started off with more substance and then, like you said, she kind of faded into the abyss and they just killed her. But, like I said, I like the way they tackled racism. They didn't ignore it in that show. The vampire diaries ignored it so much that damon was a confederate vampire, so he was a confederate soldier, but racism was never addressed. The founders parade and other like dances and events they would do ignored black oppression and slavery and shit like that. But oh, let's glorify with these lovely dances makes me think of the dang plantation weddings that people do like. Yes, plantations were for us. What?
Speaker 3:in the world um, I don't remember who, was it just scott, or somebody who was just like you? Don't see people getting married at auschwitz so like, what are we doing? Like I don't understand why people don't hold that in a similar way. It's just really wild.
Speaker 2:Right In Germany you wouldn't see any statues to Hitler, but here we have statues to people who fought to enslave people yeah and they're trying to put them back.
Speaker 3:It's crazy, it's insane and that's another reason what you were talking about earlier. I have a problem with people saying about we're looking at this with a modern lens. It's just like these issues were already here. People were just ignoring it, so it's not really modern. It's just like we're just finally at some point being able to shine a light on it, though that light might be turning off again soon, uh, or now, but yeah yeah, I think um, I think what both shows got wrong was that tara and bonnie were both treated as more disposable than their white carol the parts and that's, and as a as a writer as a writer, but then also as a tv viewer I almost go into shows or movies, knowing I mean that used to be the joke about horror movies too, where it's like the black person always gets killed first.
Speaker 3:It was just like you know, we're just there as props and not people, and I actually saw that recently on a TV show where it's a show I won't name the show, but in general it has a show. I won't name the show, but in general it has a diverse cast um. But the beginning of the recent season I saw all these. There was more diversity and I was like, oh, I've never seen all this diversity in this particular setting in the previous seasons, only to kill those people off, um and have them be traitors, and it's just just like why? It's just like, oh, they're going to let's pretend we're even upping the diversity, but now these people are disposable and they're quote, bad. So it's just like you're just doing the same stuff up the diversity correctly, um, at that time.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we've evolved more now, but like um, for example, bonnie's character was like if you ever listen to um donald clayton, she talks about painting the roses red and that's what bonnie's character felt like like a picture of a rose painted red, not like an actual 3d rose, because it was like you have this Black witch, but her magic systems were European-based and there's none of the cultural touchstones that make the fact that she's Black relevant to the story at all. Really, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:They did make her ancestor, catherine's handmaiden or whatever. But it's not like she's using any Black magic systems. You're not seeing a lot of Black culture, like when she's in her house with what's being reflected or what they're eating, or you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:There's, yeah, no nuance to the character in that way I noticed that when, um, there was a scene and someone was asking her if she had relatives in salem, and she was like I do, and I was like why would her relatives be from salem? Like when african-american, afamerican, african history has its own like mystical backstories and, like you know, those are so like, why not use those systems instead of the European? Like to me, like I didn't, like I said I didn't even fully watch that show, but I caught that, um, and it was just a short conversation and I was just like why the South has so much rich history and all of that, that's where her powers would come from, most likely. That's what makes more sense. So, yeah, exactly, you just do some Googling, it's not that hard to find.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think a way for writers who are currently trying to write these scenes to avoid some of the pitfalls is, like you said, a simple Google search. Do some research, get some readers of color who can flag things for you, cause none of us are perfect. You know we can all put something in there that might accidentally offend somebody. But to try to avoid it and, you know, give your characters nuance, make them whole people, and if your character is the bad guy, then have some representation of your story of a black person or a person of color who is not the bad guy. That way it doesn't look like the only image you're selling is the negative. You know what I mean. It doesn't even have to be a major character, at least a smaller character, but just so there's representation of the positive aspect there too exactly, and I also thought it was funny, but not in like a fully haha, way.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the vampires I think she was like newly turned and the first two people she kills are black people that was caroline and one of, and I was just like nobody said anything one of them was the dude that Bonnie liked.
Speaker 2:But, we're supposed to pity her and not the poor Black dude she murdered at the carnival for nothing. He's just trying to exist. She eats him and we're supposed to pity her. Crazy and Caroline's character to me was so obnoxious in the beginning of the show. I don't know how she went from that to having such a major lead in the show, because she was probably one of my least favorites. I didn't hate her. Toward the end they made her more well-rounded. She was definitely not my fave. Who was your fave from?
Speaker 3:what you saw. From what I saw like I said, I didn't watch the whole show. From what I did see, I didn't see a lot of Bonnie. Other characters I saw. I don't even remember what his name was the nicer vampire was an interesting character.
Speaker 3:I didn't really. Honestly, it was definitely a show I didn't watch back in the day. Even now, honestly, it was definitely a show I wouldn't have. Well, I didn't watch it back in the day and even now I got kind of annoyed with it and it's just like this is kind of boring. It's just like, oh, can we get? I'm done with these characters. Is there anybody else on this show? But at the same time it's I can say it was written for the channel, like the channel that it was on. It fit into that, so it was what it was supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as a younger person who liked speculative fiction and liked fantasy, there wasn't a lot that included us at that time, right yeah? So that's why, even with Bonnie's flaws, it was like yay, a black witch, you know, yeah and um, did you?
Speaker 3:we didn't know. Did you watch the new? We're talking about vampires, but did you watch the newer version of charms at all?
Speaker 2:I did yep, I watched it. To me it wasn't that much different than the original Charmed. I think they stuck with the same format. They did infuse a little more culture in the characters and stuff like that. It was sad, though, that I didn't feel like the show was given as much of a chance, because some of the original actresses spoke out against it and were not liking it, so it didn't get as much support, but to me it felt very Charm Reboot-ish. It felt very much the same formula.
Speaker 3:We haven't really talked about Louis. Oh yeah, that's what you just said, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what were your thoughts on Louis?
Speaker 3:It's interesting because Interview with a Vampire. The movie was one of my favorite movies back then. I thought it was done really well. I liked, in terms of vampires, anne Rice's version of vampires because they were sexier and more palatable than back in the day day, the ugly one that turned into bats and that sort of thing, um, but and at that time like I had nobody it's rooted in like, like um medieval european times or whatever, um, but I really love this new version with Louie in New Orleans, like they cause I mean they were in New Orleans before anyway but like to have him rooted there as a black man and the way they, like we know, the way they've written his backstory. They don't shy away as to what life was like for Black people at that time and how.
Speaker 3:All of that, those experiences as a Black person, racism, all of that I'm forgetting my words but informs who he is as a person and then as a character. Who he is as a person and then as a character, um, and I love that because you under, at least I understand why he's making certain choices or conflicted, like he's so conflicted, um, leaving his family, and like they're they're all still in the same area, but like, especially when he's a vampire now and he can't really be around them, um, but he still wants to be connected to them in some way. Um just working with and fighting for people in his community. I want lots of things happen, as he just felt like an actual person slash character and not just some plot device. Um, and I really appreciate that some plot device and I really appreciate that with this series and I have to say I've only watched the first season, I haven't seen the other. Were there three seasons? I know there's at least two and I agree.
Speaker 3:More of a haunted character.
Speaker 2:Definitely. I agree completely. He's a primary protagonist. His love life, his identity, everything's fully fleshed out and it's central to the plot. He's not just the off to the side person that comes in and plays a magical Negro when they need someone to die to save everyone else. And I also like the way they're balanced with their portrayal, whereas like in the first season, if you remember.
Speaker 2:Louis was a pimp and that's where his wealth came from. But then you have his family, who's more spiritual and who's completely opposed to that lifestyle. So you're showing a balance. You're not depicting, like all, black men as pimps kind of thing, and I think with all characters might not be as essential to do that, because with white people we have a million different views of whiteness that we've seen in stories in this country. But with people of color, because there aren't as many depictions and this might be the only depiction someone sees. I think it's important to have that balance to where, if somebody's going to be staunchly negative, you should have at least some representative of this is not the whole, because this right look you're putting their hand might be their only view of blackness. We don't know.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean yeah, definitely, but I like that they do the balance in that show. I like that he has a love life and romantic pairings and just depth really, you know yeah have you seen um seasons past?
Speaker 3:season one, yes, does that continue?
Speaker 2:It does. Okay, it does. I love the way they handle the child vampire, claudia. Yeah, as well. Her death was sad, though that was heartbreaking, but I like the the. To me that the thing about a good remake is you want to have the elements of the original so that we get the reminiscing, the fond memory, but you want to have enough of a twist to make it fresh and exciting and engaging on your own, and I feel like they give that yeah, I can agree with that, just even from what I saw um, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And when I was complaining about Bonnie, one thing else I forgot. So, like I said, they kill her grand, her father's murdered in front of her, and never is she allowed to really fully grieve on screen. Right, then they make her the anchor to the other side, so for anybody to die they have to literally pass through her and she feels their death. Oh God, they just tormented this character forever.
Speaker 2:And then, when she finally gets a love scene, when she, her and Jeremy are hooking up, that can't even be a ah, I found love romantic moment, because then somebody has to die and pass through her and it becomes a painful thing for her.
Speaker 1:Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Every way they could abuse this girl.
Speaker 3:Let a Black girl be happy Jesus.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. And with Louis, like I said, he has his ups, he has his downs, he has his painful moments, but you never feel like he's not a fully fleshed out, realized character in those moments he has all of the things that he has. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:I wonder if the same could still be said if the character was a Black woman, because, for whatever reason, I feel like the writing is quote difficult or whatever when it comes to black women as this, where some sort of like extra creature that's not human, that's so hard to write about or write for, and it's just like why it it annoys me so much and yet still not hiring the people who need to be in the writer's room to make sure that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's true. That's a good point, that's definitely a good point.
Speaker 3:And when they do they're usually lower on the run, so they can't really push forward any real hard suggestions. They just have to do what they're told.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I like that. Louis wasn't a paint the roses red character, he's a creole black man and then they made that central to the story, like um, there are scenes where he has more agency. Um, I'm trying to think of the example. There's like one scene in particular where he has more agency. I'm trying to think of the example. There was like one scene in particular where he's talking to this white man and he's Creole. So maybe because he's not I'm sensing but I didn't just freshly rewatch this, so give me some grace if I'm wrong but to me it felt like there were some places that he can get into because he's creole, so he had the lighter skin thing for him going on, but he's still black.
Speaker 2:So then there were limitations definitely to his freedom, and I remember there was one conversation with him and this man where the man was basically like pining for the days when he would not have to, when he would not be in here and he wouldn't have to engage with him, kind of thing, and so they don't like shy away from the racism. I remember there was a scene where there's like a poker game in the first episode and Louis is talking to him telepathically and Louis is basically like you know, I hate the way they treat you and your people in this time.
Speaker 3:You mean Lestat, lestat. Excuse me, I'm saying Lestat. I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm saying Louis Lestat, excuse me, I'm saying Lestat.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm saying Louis Lestat is telepathically telling these things to. Louis. Lestat, by the way, was my favorite character in the books hands down. Damon was my favorite in the vampire series After Bonnie.
Speaker 3:I always liked the bad boy.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, but yeah, but they, like I said, tackled that head on.
Speaker 3:I like that yeah, because it would be stupid for them not to. I mean you can't, you can't set a story in this time frame, in that location and not address it, um, and have this main character be like you. I mean you can try, but it's gonna be stupid, right, you know?
Speaker 3:I mean like why, allow your creative project to look stupid when you just address it like these things happened. They still are happening, um, so, which makes your story still relevant to what's going on now, like these times. So it's just like let's stop pretending that these things didn't happen, aren't happening because they did and they are, um, exactly, and I personally think the creators and writers look smarter to just address it than to try and like shy and skirt away from it. That's stupid very true.
Speaker 2:I liked, too, that they played with a different time period. For example, the vampire diaries didn't have to glorify the pre-slavery years In an interview with a vampire. That's not the time they're in. You know, if they're vampires, they've lived over 100 years. You could have picked any time on that spectrum to start your story in, but you chose the one you wanted to glorify and that is what that is, um.
Speaker 2:What was also interesting, um, is the behind the scenes treatment of some of these actors, um, like, uh, retina or retina excuse me, wesley. Um, you know, the retina, who played tara thornton, got a lot of hate and racism from fans, like Ratina or Ratuna excuse me, wesley. Ratina, who played Tara Thornton, got a lot of hate and racism from fans online and she felt like there was a lack of protection for her character's legacy in some ways. Yeah, and then there's this whole thing online with how Pat Graham was treated by the fandom and also by the showrunners. Like, if you watch interviews, they would interrupt her a lot and she would talk about wanting the relationship with her and dave and wanting these things and that you know, kind of being shot down and and one time she joked that the writers wanted to kill her off but they might have been afraid of fan backlash because she was beloved.
Speaker 2:And again, she was the only Black lead on the show and in some interviews you see her being ignored by her castmates Wow. So there's a lot of interesting stuff. And the Boy Meets World the only black girl on that show. If you watch interviews of her talking about that time, she talks about the same thing, like experiencing some racism on the set and not feeling like she was being treated very well. So that has to be interesting being the only on the set and experiencing those things, I mean it's crazy Nicole Berry on Sleepy Hollow on the set and experiencing those things.
Speaker 3:I mean it's crazy. Nicole Berry on Sleepy Hollow had I mean, they treated her poorly as well. I mean it's just like this is your lead, who's doing an awesome job. People are watching the show for these people and you're treating them like shit, like I don't know Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I guess the lesson and the takeaway is that black viewers, like all viewers, we want well-rounded cast. We want to see ourselves reflected, just like you do, but we want fully realized depictions. We don't want to just be the shallow best friend who has no life outside of saving you.
Speaker 3:We want to be able to only point out existing yeah, and it's like, is that better than like, I don't know, like I think about like some other groups who just aren't as like, represented much at all, because we talk about the Black characters, but whereas the Asian vampires and the Latino vampires Latino vampires, all that, though they did have. But anyway, I was trying to think back on True Blood, but it's just like what's worse. Maybe it's not even like to even have that conversation. Worse, maybe it's not even like to even have that conversation. Um, is it worse to be the sparable character that's there to die for everybody else, or is it better to not be there at all? I don't know good point.
Speaker 2:Um, that's why I said she crawled so tara could walk and tara walked so louis could run. This would be a fully fleshed out character because, you're right, the representation wasn't there. So at the time, you know, if that was what you're interested in, you took it because that was what was available exactly yeah, and all this wasn't that long ago, this would be talking what less than 20 years?
Speaker 2:yeah, um yeah, between and I love my white friends, but I'm not going to die for y'all repeatedly. I'm sorry and you're not my friends if you expect me to.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry y'all, but if you know any. Black people. It's not happening.
Speaker 2:See you next time. Because in reality, the sister would be the first one running in the horror movie. It'd be like, oh hell, no, what's that Exactly? Michael Myers is coming. I'm out of here.
Speaker 3:Goodbye, walking through the house Like who's there.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not in the woods investigating shit, I'm out the door.
Speaker 3:You know funny story I went to a haunted house with some of my friends like several years back. Like you get to the end and like you know, like when you're waiting in line outside you see people being chased out with chainsaws, with these guys running after them with chainsaws. So you know, that's the end at some point. So I'm going through this haunted house with my friends and we get to that point and the guy, so there's like's like this doorway and the guy with the chainsaw is standing there and, for whatever reason, he walks away. So I'm like, okay, here's a time to go. So like I walk through the door and all of a sudden I hear the chainsaw rev up again and I'm out like I don't look for my friend.
Speaker 3:I don't turn around, I'm just out and like it was like a bit of a maze too, but someone like I was running so fast and then I just like bolted out the door. Meanwhile they my friends were like behind me and he ends up chasing them out, but they were like we turned our heads next thing. We just see you. I don't need to hear or know anything else. Dude's got a chainsaw and it's on. Goodbye.
Speaker 2:Years ago. Years ago, I was probably in my late teens, early 20s. I was working at McDonald's as a cashier and the power went out and my manager had the bright idea to lock the door. So if anybody took everything, anything like all the suspects would remain. I don't know what he was thinking, but he locks the door, the power's out. When the lights come back on, they can't find me. Why my black ass was hiding in the closet. I was a cashier. I'm not going to be standing in front of the money in the dark with strange spirits. I'm sorry, exactly, you're not hitting me to get to the jury. Y'all don't pay me enough to die. I was in the closet, yeah. Lights came back on there to find me with the brooms hiding. No, no, no, not me, not today.
Speaker 3:I was up to a hero Like why would you not just let them leave? Yes, that was insane. I don't know why he even did that.
Speaker 2:What was he thinking? And then the same thing, a similar thing happened one time at um home depot when I used to work there when I was young I worked many jobs when I was a young person and home depot stayed open. The power was out and they had like the, the emergency backup, the dimmer lights, and they had us like walking people through the aisles with flashlights so they could continue shopping and then people cashiers are supposed to literally with a calculator calculate what the totals were and just take cash only.
Speaker 3:It was crazy I had to do that. I worked at a movie theater in high school when the power went out and we had to do things with the calculator. Well, at first we didn't even have the calculators and it was just like do it in your head or whatever.
Speaker 1:I'm just like what?
Speaker 3:So I'd be like oh, it's about $20. But then you couldn't even open up the drawer.
Speaker 2:I feel so sorry for the little Chick-fil-A kids. You see them standing outside. Oh, I know right, it can be cold or whatever. They have them standing outside. I'm like, oh, I remember being young, but there are other jobs, maybe you don't have to freeze, yeah. Find something indoors where you can hide in the closet.
Speaker 3:Hide in the closet. Well, at least if they're outside they could run away. Yeah, that's true. Not wishing anyone anyone, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So any final words you want to leave people on this topic who are thinking about writing characters in the Black speculative space or in the speculative space including any like if you're writing characters that are outside of your cultural zone, or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 3:Do some research. Um, you know, talk to people, even like I'm writing a story or um, there are some asian characters and I know that I'm gonna reach out to some people. Read this. Do I have the culture right? Um, you know, especially the way people speak in culture. So if you have characters going home and talking to their families, they're most likely going to talk differently um than they would in public spaces with other people. Um, so, just be conscious and aware of those things. So you, you know you're not offending people, but also just you have better characters and well-rounded characters. Even if you're doing fantasy and creating other beings, they still need to be rounded beings, you know. But you know, I just just don't be lazy. Don't be lazy writers.
Speaker 2:Very true, Very true. Like she said, get people to read. You can even look into sensitivity reading. I've done sensitivity readings before. Reach out to me, ask my rates. Other people do them. You know what I mean. Reach out to sensitivity readers. Sensitivity reading gets a bad rap a lot of times. People want to look at it as censorship, but really it can help enrich your story because it doesn't have to all be this is wrong, this is bad. Sometimes it's just helping improve it.
Speaker 2:it might be a holiday meal and you're serving the wrong thing you know exactly they can point out the cultural nuances and touchstones that make the characters feel well-rounded and not like a rose painted red and um sweet potato pie, not pumpkin. Exactly, Exactly. And to me, even if you're someone who doesn't care about hurting people with harmful depictions, to me it just seems like a common sense thing to do to not want to offend people who might buy future books. You don't want to offend a whole audience of book buyers.
Speaker 2:You want people to buy your books, exactly yes. So you might want to have thoughtful representation. Have representation, but just have it well-rounded and thoughtful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then nobody's telling you that you are racist or a bad person, because they're trying to help you make it better. It's just learning. It's just you have to think of it as education. What education? And like we all need it, cause none of us are all knowing about every culture and every type of person and religion and everything that's out there. So it's you want to do that, it's fine.
Speaker 2:It's no one saying that you're bad. Yeah, exactly, and I myself in the past I told you this before. Remember one of my very first things I wrote. I had a beta reader read it and they told me that it was like misogynistic, and as a woman I was so embarrassed. But as a kid who grew up on Pepper Rain the movie where they're throwing the lady of the dumpster at hip-hop music there probably was a lot of internalized misogyny in there, that I and learn.
Speaker 2:So while it was embarrassing as a woman, it was also a learning experience and that was like okay, wow, let me look at this with a different lens and then realize where I can grow you know what I mean and do better and thank God for that because I'd rather be embarrassed privately by you telling me that I can improve something and be caught with my pants down publicly out here looking crazy in the world you have to stop the big scandals and people taking your book off the shelf ahead of time.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I don't want to be embarrassed publicly, I don't want to be a hashtag. Yeah, so yeah, we all learn, we all grow. The shows were good for their time and the more modern one obviously was more modern in its perspective. All right, we appreciate you guys for joining us as we took you on another writer's journey. Have a great day, happy writing. Happy writing.
Speaker 4:That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Mayer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayercom. That's jdmayercom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.