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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
Season 4 Episode 8: Silver Dragons & Ann Garvin on Writing, Ageism & Going Viral – You Won’t Believe Her Story!
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Lee Ann Walling and the Silver Dragons of Drexel University's MFA Alumni Association invite you to dive into an unforgettable conversation with bestselling author Ann Garvin!
In this engaging episode, Ann shares her journey from academia—where she spent years studying exercise physiology and health psychology—to the world of literature. With humor as her guiding light, she navigates the complexities of writing beyond 50, tackling ageism in publishing, viral mishaps, and the power of storytelling to break barriers.
With the release of her latest works—seamlessly blending humor and poignancy—Ann proves that creativity knows no age. She candidly discusses the limitations society places on older authors and how she’s defied them with resilience and laughter. From her viral dating mishap to breaking into publishing later in life, Ann’s insights are both inspiring and thought-provoking.
Listeners will also discover the magic of community and collaboration as Ann delves into her role with the Tall Poppy Writers, a collective that uplifts women authors through support and shared success. In a competitive industry, their philosophy proves that rising together is far more powerful than standing alone.
Join us for this insightful conversation, where we challenge stereotypes, embrace creativity, and celebrate resilience in writing. Tune in now, and don’t forget to visit jdmall.com for more writing resources and workshops to fuel your passion!
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener-affiliate.html?fpr=craftchat
Ann Garvin, writing over 50, author interview, publishing industry, humor in writing, resilience in writing, how to become an author, Tall Poppy Writers, ageism in publishing, viral dating story, female authors, women in publishing, writing tips, publishing advice, how to write a book, bestselling authors, Anne Garvin books, creative writing, writing inspiration, book writing advice, writing community, writing journey, book industry secrets, storytelling tips, writer’s life, author career, writing process, breaking into publishing, humor in literature, writing for women, publishing success, book promotion, writer resilience, storytelling wisdom, book marketing, Craft Chat Chronicles, J.D. Myall, writer support groups. Silver Dragons, Drexel MFA Alumni
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Introduction to Craft Chat Chronicles
Speaker 1Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles , the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction . Here at Craft Chat Chronicles , we bring you expert interviews , insights and tips on writing , publishing and marketing . Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey . For workshops , show notes and more information , visit jdmyallcom . That's jdmyallcom .
Speaker 2In season four , episode eight of Craft Chat Chronicles , we have a special treat for you . As you guys know , I'm co-chair of Drexel University's MFA Alumni Association and as such , I like to give you guys sneak peeks into what goes on with the alumni at Drexel , and one of the goings-ons is a group ran by Leanne Walling called the Silver Dragons . It's for Drexel alumni of a certain age . If you're over 50 , you can become a Silver Dragon . If you're not , like myself , you can sneak a peek at what goes on in Silver Dragons meetings and see some of the fun they have on this video . On in Silver Dragons meetings and see some of the fun they have on this video .
Speaker 2And in today's video the Silver Dragons talk to author Anne Garvin , who's written titles like Bummer Camp and there's no Coming Back From this . Anne is funny , she's intelligent , it's an enlightening conversation and you know she gives you some insight about writing and being a writer of a certain age . So if you're over 50 , this is a good group and a good episode to listen to . If you're under 50 , it's still an interesting conversation to eavesdrop on . So this is Season 4 , episode 8 of Craft Chat Chronicles and we are visiting Drexel University MFA alumni's group , the Silver Dragons .
Speaker 4So , anne , thanks for coming . You know you pop in and out of our life , our Drexel MFA lives and you know , and you're , and I just always thought you were really hilarious . Just I can't whether you want it to be or not , so I thought it would be great to have ann on , especially after your uh , here comes mo , especially after you know you went viral a few months ago . So , uh , if you don't mind , I'm just . You know I shared some questions with ann that I was was going to ask ahead of time .
Speaker 5Hey , mo hey , hi , how are you ? Hey , there she is hi there she is .
Speaker 4I'll keep an eye on the chat , but just , you know , dive in and ask a question , um , I don't . I tend to ignore , I tend to forget about the chat going on on the right . So , but the first thing I wanted to ask you , ann , and you know , you know this can go in any kind of order , but I didn't realize I'm right in the middle of bummer camp for one thing and it's uh , it's really fun , a lot of fun , and I , I , I'm you know the sister is driving me crazy , but that's okay , ginger , she's supposed to right . But I've realized that you were a professor . You were , you had this former life at least one as a , a professor focused on exercise , physiology and health psychology . And you're this academic PhD person . And I'm just curious or I know a lot of us are curious , except how did you morph into a humor writer ? What happened ? Did something ? Was there a turning point ? When did things start becoming funny to you ?
Speaker 5Was there a turning point ? When did things start becoming funny to you ? Oh , things have always been funny to me . I think I grew up thinking things were funny . I think I probably grew up thinking things were different , thinking about things differently , and then it turned out that those , the way that I was thinking about things , was funny to other people .
Speaker 5But I , yeah , I mean , I was a nurse first and I worked for a nurse for as a nurse for 15 years and then , while I was working as a nurse , I went back and got my PhD in exercise physiology and then health psychology , sports psychology , and then , you know , I was always a reader and I always loved , you know , authors that often combined funny and sad . But I never really thought that I would ever write it . And then , I don't know , people were always telling me like your letters are so funny , you should write a book . But I never had even the slightest idea of how you would write a book . Like , it just seemed like an absolute impossible thing for me . But then I entered a short story contest and it was with the Wisconsin Book Festival and the cool thing about it was that they had lots of judges that were university professors and I don't know how many people they had try out for that , but I won second place . And then my really good girlfriend , christy Clancy , who has a book called Snowbirds . I was just reading it . She won first , but we didn't know each other at the time . We've become friends since then .
Speaker 5But the contest itself is the reason that I got started , and the reason was this that they sent a picture to my email . Everybody got the same picture and you had to write a story in 24 hours . That was it , and then it was 10 bucks . And then you did it . They sent you on your way , and then they didn't tell the winners that they won until the day of the event that they were going to announce the winners , and so they had rented this enormous theater and filled it with people waiting to hear whether they won or not , and I was in San Francisco at a wedding because they didn't tell me I won until that day .
Speaker 5So but the thing about the contest that was so great was that it was the first time I realized like , oh , you just picture something in your head and you make a story around it . Like I didn't know , I had this idea that you sit down and write like anybody's , like oh , writers just sit down and they write their stories and they do a magical thing . But I , that idea of seeing a picture in my head and then writing a story about it that was the moment where I was like , oh , now I have lots of ideas , you know . And then I just worked , like you guys , to learn how to do it how old were you when you started doing this ?
Speaker 5that was so I'm 63 and that was 2004 , so isn't anybody good at math ?
Speaker 520 years ago 40 , well , 40 something , 40 something already said we're not getting yeah , yeah , and then , you know , I worked on learning how to do it and then getting an agent , and then my first book was sold , um , I don't know , 2008 I guess , and then 2010 was when my first book came out . So , yeah , um , and that was published with um penguin , um , which was great . And then they published my second one , and then simon and schuster published my third one , and then it didn't look good for ann garvin what do you mean ? Like I wasn't selling enough books and I did make the list for that third one , but it didn't seem to matter . Like I , my public , the Simon and Schuster was like they didn't want another book for me and I'd . I didn't really like my agent , so I fired my agent and then I was without an editor and without an agent and then I just sat back , wrote two books , couldn't sell them , but did get an agent with one of them , who then passed me off to another agent who I then sold two books with her .
Speaker 5I guess too , yeah , is this at Folio ? Yeah , at Folio . She left Folio and then , but I stayed them , because now I have Claudia and Margaret , so , and I've had all together I've had so 123455 editors and I don't know , probably eight agents , seven agents , wow , really , yeah . And I've left one . One left , I left one , I left another one . I bugged one that said you don't like me , give me a different person . That was a polio , cause I was like you don't , you don't like me , give me a different person . That was a polio , because I was like you don't , you don't even like me , give me a different lady . And then he did so the reason I say all that is that I think it's really important to know that . You know it's not a . It's not , it's a , it's a persistence that keeps you going .
Speaker 5There's a lot of people that 80% of 85% of writers stop after three books . I think it's probably closer to two now . So , yeah , so you know , and not because they necessarily want to , it's because you know things have gotten very tough and you know , I think it's really important to know when to stop . I'm not a person that knows how to stop very well , which is why I was married to an alcoholic for 15 years . So it's good and bad to be that person Like , yeah , you have to know when to stop . And I wasn't ready to stop yet , so I just kept going . And then one of those books I wrote was Bummer Camp , and the other one is the one that's coming out in 20 , 26 the other one so I've been able to write those books and have them eventually come out , which is good .
Speaker 5Yeah , you know , you just keep , keep going . Like Jamie and George , you must be writing more books right now , are you ?
Speaker 3I am . I actually I'm doing YA right now . I wrote a thriller and it's in my you know metaphorical shelf right now , but or drawer , but right now I'm doing a YA , so which kind of makes sense because I work with that age group . So it's a good fit and even my historical fiction the character was it could have easily been YA because you know she was that age .
Speaker 5Yeah , and what about you , George ?
Speaker 6So , and remember the first one that we worked , worked on when I was at drexel yeah , so that one's with my agent being shopped , and today I sent the second , a second novel , to my agent amazing good so hopefully one sells the other yeah , well , sometimes that's the way it is .
Speaker 5Or sometimes you get an agent who's like yeah , I don't really do these books , but I really want to work with you . Can you write something else ? And I mean , I think there's a lot of people that have hard and fast rules about a lot of things and I don't really have a lot of hard and fast rules about very many things . Like , I might work with somebody under that circumstance . Or somebody might say yeah , you're going to write another book before you can publish this one . I'd be like I'd check around , I'd ask around , I'd make advice I'd get , and then maybe I would do that . I just think a lot of times people are like it's my art , I'm not bought , and I think , well , in some circumstances that's an okay response , but if it stops you from doing something that you really want to do , it's not a not a good response . Right ?
Speaker 4So I was going to ask you , I'm sorry , go ahead please .
Speaker 5I was going to say that I'm like I'm the kind of person that's like I now work at Starbucks . If I have to work at Starbucks , I don't care if I have a PhD , like that's how I feel about writing , like I'll just keep going until I until legit says , and we don't want another thing from you and then I'm not teaching at all .
Speaker 4Are you not teaching the old stuff at all , the
Insights on Writing, Publishing, and Marketing
Speaker 4psychology , the sports stuff and the exercise ?
Speaker 5I did that for 30 years or 25 , almost 30 years . Yeah , I'm very happy to not be teaching that anymore , you know , you just it's enough . Like I did enough and I did a lot of publishing in that area exercise and anxiety primarily and I just had enough of it .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 5This is just way more fun for me . I just it's so much more fun , Even though it's hard , it's more fun .
Speaker 4Has your notion of what's funny changed as you got older ? It's just way more fun for me . I just it's so much more fun . Even though it's hard , it's more fun . Has your notion of what's funny changed as you got older ? Are things funny now that weren't funny before ?
Speaker 5Well , maybe I think that I'm . No , I would not say that I think I have the same sense of humor . I'm just probably bolder now when I get in a little more , little more trouble .
Speaker 5Yeah , we'll get to that in a minute . Yeah , but I don't , um , I would not say that . My , I think I've always had the same kind of sense of humor . It's very helpful when you're teaching undergrads like super helpful then , because it keeps their attention . And but you know , I also was worried that when they started taking videos that I would lose my job . Why ? Because humor isn't always straightforward and you know , academics is very straightforward . So it was great to have a closed room where nobody was videotaping you on your phone , and it's very nice not to like . It would have been hard on me to hold my tongue on certain situations and describe things the way I wanted to describe them . So I'm very happy that I'm not doing that anymore . It's better for me .
Speaker 4What about how old is your agent ? I mean , can you tell me about ? I mean I just having been on manuscript wishlist and query tracker and they , they seem so young and and and One of them is my age .
Speaker 5I have two agents there and one of them is maybe a little bit younger than me or my age , and that I mean maybe she's like five or 10 years younger , I don't even know . To me I forget to be a certain age , or all the my age and I mean , maybe she's like five or 10 years younger , I don't even know . To me I have to get to be a certain age , or all the same age . So , you know , until you know , things change entirely . But and then Margaret has little kids . So she's yeah , it's kind of a mix of things .
Speaker 5And my new editor is super young . Like she's super young . She reminds me a lot of my daughter and we spend a lot of time on the phone just on Zooms , just visiting and dicking around , which has not been the case sometimes with some of the other agents I've had . Like she's probably the most fun one that I . Like that we'll have a more personal relationship with , probably . And she's young , she's incredibly young , though Like every time I talk to her I'm like I could have birthed you , you know .
Speaker 4So that doesn't make a difference .
Speaker 5It doesn't to me . But I have to say like I don't really notice my age until somebody makes me notice my age . Like I don't pay a ton , like I'm not saying that I don't like look different or feel different or anything like that . But , truth be told , I live in a head that doesn't really clock my age until somebody says , oh , you're that old or something , I don't know something , and then I'll be like , oh , oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . You know , like I was talking to somebody recently who said you're like a big sister to me and I was like , oh , oh , because I'm older , like it was funny , because I don't , I don't clock it and maybe that's I don't know ADHD , because you really live in the moment when you have ADHD and I really do , or I don't know what it is , but it's not something I really think about a lot . I think about it a little bit more , like when I'm on Zoom and I can see my face and I think , good , christ , but other than that , I don't really don't notice age that much until somebody makes me notice it , like , and I haven't really , I have had , you know , I've certainly . Well , let me think about that . Have I experienced age .
Speaker 5I think it's very hard to discriminate between age and gender discrimination . I think that they're intertwined . I got fired from Southern New Hampshire I think that was as much about . They just didn't like me as a lady , like he thought I had a higher degree than he did , and also he didn't like the books I read because he thought they were stupid lady books , and so I think that was like a mix of things and some of that is misogyny and some of it as he thought I was too old . Like it's very hard to tease those two things out . I wouldn't say typically , I have noticed it . It's very possible that I'm just not paying that much attention , honestly .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 5I'm sort of hopping along doing my thing , um yeah , until I had the date where the guy was like I thought I'd date younger women and I was like that's a great .
Speaker 4That's a great segue because , uh , I mean , I personally have never heard from you directly about that . Uh , you're going viral after your online dating experience and I just uh , obviously age influenced both the encounter and the response , so I think I guess what do you think ?
Speaker 5well , the funny thing about that is that they asked me to write . They asked me to write you know a thing about like , like kicking it and um , doing well at a certain age ? And I was like I not I'm not writing that , like I don't give a shit about my age , I'm not writing that . And I said , but I will write . Why I don't want to write that ? Because I don't think that age has anything to do with anything other than sore knees and whatever . Like , if anything to me , my learned life experience and ability to write and articulate is because I'm older . So anybody that has any disparaging things to say about somebody that has more learned life experience , this is like a dickhead , like it's just stupid , it's just ageism that we've all decided that , okay , we're going to all be ageist because we've been brainwashed to be that way .
Speaker 5So like I was , like I'm not , I'm not writing that , but I will write about why I'm not writing that . And that article was about why I'm not writing that . But I started with the grossest example of that , with going out on a date , somebody is supposed to be in their best behavior . With going out on a date , somebody is supposed to be in their best behavior . And he said this thing that he did not even think that I was . He wasn't putting me in that category . Like I wish I was dating . He was like comfortable and be like I wish I was dating .
Speaker 5He wasn't insulting me . He didn't realize he was insulting everyone , he was just stupid about it . You know , he was super comfortable and he was like I just thought I'd be dating younger women . I'm like you . That is not what you say to any woman . That's . The only value is their age . Okay , so I wrote that article based on that . Now everybody got jazzed about it because it's such a kind of hateful thing to say and it's also clueless , um and so in some cases I think people read the first five lines of that and and moved on but , the article itself .
Speaker 5it's not . It's really about , like I the I everybody's obsession with hating age , and you know that I think it's funny because my mother it's something I've thought about my whole life , because my mother often felt as though she was invisible because of her age , and so I heard her about it a lot .
Speaker 4So yeah , was your initial reaction .
Speaker 5hurt no , it was just like oh my god , why are you ever dumb ? No , I really just I did not feel hurt even the least bit , because , number one I am , don't feel bad about my age yeah and I certainly was like you're fucking lucky to be sitting across from me , dude , you've got .
Speaker 5And so for him to say that just showed me everything I need to know about him . I was like thank god I could leave . Like it was like I could go home , take my pants off and watch a know , like it was just so dumb . Um , and I , I , you know it would be just like anything that anybody said If , like all , if , they sat down and said I hate dogs , you'd be like we're done so , just a marker of who they are and what they're saying .
Speaker 5It wasn't an insult . He didn't really mean it as an insult , cause when I stood up , he was like , oh my God , I didn't mean you . Like he realized what he said and I was like , well , it doesn't matter whether you mean me , you're an idiot . You know like you're putting value
Journey of the Silver Dragons Group
Speaker 5on somebody based on their age . And I was like , okay , because he didn't say any other thing , like there was no other descriptor , it was just age that he was bummed about . And he was , like you know , thinking I would be the bro that he could tell what . What went viral on twitter ? Um , yeah , went viral on twitter .
Speaker 5Six million , it went kind of everywhere then like it went on twitter and then people started sharing it on facebook and on instagram and , yeah , it went , but it definitely was , which you know . It's a shame , because I hate Twitter now and I don't want to go back to it at all , but yeah , yeah , it was on Twitter . I'd gone viral one time before and it was the story about how to put other writers down by using language , and that was the story of getting fired at Southern New Hampshire and how you , how we say things that subtly put other writers down in backhanded ways , like saying things like oh , she wrote it , but she had help . Or you know , she wrote it , but it's a certain kind of book , or he wrote it and it's a certain kind of book , he wrote it and it's a certain kind of book , or you know , it was genre or whatever ways that people put other writers down and other artists down just for fun . And so I had written that piece and that went viral too , but not nearly to six million .
Speaker 4Six million . That's incredible . Did you get ? Did you get ? Did you get negative feedback too ? No , that was crazy .
Speaker 5I did not . I got two proposals of marriage I'm by a rabbi who was like it was a very funny thing . He was like I'm a rabbi , I don't know , it was such a funny proposal . I was like , oh , black . And then the other one was just a very nice man who was like it's probably wrong of me to ask , but are you single ? I would go out with you . And I was like good for you . But no , so I did not . It shockingly did not In this world of the Internet where everybody seems to hate everybody .
Speaker 5I did not get anything . There were a couple scuffles within the chat that other people were coming at other commenters and I was like sneaking out of , like nobody really came at me , which I was so grateful for . Did you ever hear from the guy ? No , because it was a couple of years ago . Honestly , I couldn't think about it , the crowd . He didn't look anything like his pictures anyway , so I really couldn't think about it , the crowd . But I know he lived in Milwaukee . But yeah , I don't know . I don't know very much about him , but I mean honestly , if it comes around to it , that was one of the least toxic dates I was on . And then I often think about writing some of the other ones , but I've talked to a lot of people and they have worse stories than mine .
Speaker 4So yeah , tell us a little about Tall Poppy Writers and what led you to set up that group , and the value to the women who are part of it .
Speaker 5Yeah , I , I , you know , I have the tall poppy writers because in 2010 , after my on Maggie's watchbook sold like seven , you know , and I was like , oh , I had no idea how hard it was going to be to sell a book and I couldn't even get in my Soton , wisconsin population 2000 people hub newspaper because some eighth grader kept getting a three pointer and they kept shoving me off the page . So I thought I'm never going to , I'm never going to sell any books , I'm never going to get another book deal . I just thought it was over . Just thought it was over . So I thought , well , I don't understand why they don't .
Speaker 5What authors don't do what you know music people do , which is , you know , bring people up on the stage with you , young new people and help each other . Or I was like , why are all these authors just working in a silo , like everybody's just talking about their books but nobody's talking about each other's books , and that just seemed like crazy to me , like what a waste of time . So then I talked to two women authors that were in my town and I was like this is what I want to do and make this collective of women and I and I want to call it the tall puppy writers , because the idea behind that is that Australian research , where they did this work with women and men , but predominantly with women , and how , if one person grows higher than the rest , there is a practice of tearing them down , and so it's like the mean girl thing that we all know so well about . But it's not . Men do it too , but men are much more straightforward . They're just like you know how it is . When men are fighting , they're like fuck off , I'm taking your corporation , it's over for you , whereas women will be like you're ugly , and then you know they're kind of bitches to you . And then the competition is you know how it is women . I don't know what it's like for you guys , but like women know what it's like .
Speaker 5Like you'll be in a chat with seven people that you think are your really good friends and you say , oh my God , I just sold my book and you get like a thumbs up and a heart , and then one of them is like I love you so much , I'm so glad for you . You got that one really great friend and two other people that are kind of like I would write a book too , if I didn't have to have daycare , you know . So it's this weird thing like somebody's success is somebody else's failure and I just won't have that . I taught health for 30 years . I clearly care about other people . I just don't somebody . One person success is not my failure . It's not a zero sum game . So when I started putting that together , that's how I sold it Diverse women , diverse titles , tall copywriters , and it's been .
Speaker 5You know , we've done it for 12 , 13 years now . We've won a lot of awards , we've had a lot of shout outs . The interesting thing about it , I think , is that we changed the culture of authors talking about each other's books Like romance , did it ? But they only talked about romance .
Speaker 5And then there was some others . Some of the cozies would help each other sell , but we were the first group of women that got together and pushed it so that we no longer talked about ourselves as much . We talked about each other and we've had lots of growing pains .
Speaker 5We've had lots of people leave and bring new people in every year . Um , we had some real during the pandemic . We had , third , lost 13 and we really thought we're gonna go under because there was like some major drama . Um , but we've been able to sort it out and keep going and I think we're known better . Honestly , I believe that I don't really believe that we , as tall poppies , sell tons of books .
Speaker 5What I think we do is the publishers and the agents know us and they can make a deal based on us being poppies , because we clearly are doing the work and I would say the collaboration of it is and the interaction is where the magic is .
Speaker 5So , like , like , for example , I'll tell you like we have this chat and you , you know , it doesn't have to be a group of people that are out there . We're outwardly , necessarily , as out , like we are with website and everything , but we had this chat recently and one of our poppies just had a book launch and somebody came into their Instagram and also a review and gave them a one star review because apparently , 20 years ago , this woman had written a book on the same topic and just roasted her . And so the poppies like got in there and wrote a bunch on the same topic and just roasted her and so the piece like got in there and wrote a bunch of really positive reviews and really supported her . And you know , I think that that is enough right there . That kind of collaboration and support from the people that you're working with is so necessary because otherwise you know what it's like , you all know what it's like you work , you think I like that sentence and then you go , maybe know what it's like .
Speaker 5You all know what it's like . You work in a room . You think I like that sentence . And then you go , maybe I like it , is that a good sentence ? Like , oh , I think I'll delete that sentence and then you know , but it's really good to have somebody else . You know . You know what it was like when you were in the MFA and then what it felt like when you were not in the MFA . Like when you were in the MFA and then what it felt like when you were not in the MFA . And so , the tall poppies , we don't do a lot of like reading each other's writing and stuff , but we do . We try to collaborate as much as we can to help each other , do what we can within the amount of time and energy that we have , you know .
Speaker 4Yeah , Well , what's the ? What do you have to do to join , to become a member of our tall poppy ? What do you have to do to ?
Speaker 5join . To become a member of All Poppy . You have one or two traditionally published novels . You have to be nominated by a Poppy . I always say we're like what's that super good Guggenheim , is it a Guggenheim fellow that they give you ? Is it Guggenheim ? No , that's not what it is . What's the thing that they give you a ton of money and everybody talks about it all the time and nobody knows how you get one and you have to be nominated . Macarthur yeah , that's it .
Speaker 5We're not that prestigious , but we're a little like that . Like you have to be nominated and then you have to have displayed a long time of generosity by helping other authors . Like we see it , like we can see it on your page . If you're only talking about yourself , then we look at that . We're like , yeah , I don't think that person's going to be a very good poppy . Yeah , and also you need to know who we are , what we are and have interacted with us for a while , because some people will be like , I want the tall poppies to teach me how to write and I'm like , I don't know what you're talking about . Like , is it a website ? Like , what's your deal ?
Speaker 5So I think what it does , too , is helps people understand what collaboration and network is , and I think I've talked about this before in the MFA is that people think networking is looking at somebody and going , what can that person do for me ? And that's not what it is . And you know , jonathan , there you are over there , jonathan , he's such a good networker Like he , just he . If you were a lady , we'd bring you in as a poppy , because he's so generous and and like , spontaneously helpful , and that's the kind of thing that we look for in the poppies , like if we have to , if we have to be like twist your arm or something . If we don't see that kind of generosity , then we don't bring people in . Right , I don't gamble , because I get it wrong a lot .
Speaker 4I do because you know people are good at hiding it and so I don't always get it right so I'm going to ask one more question and then you know I didn't mean to hog it , I just thought I'd get the ball rolling , but I just I'd like to ask you what your take is on the traditional publishing landscape right now . And you know , I've studied query data and I've , you know , I've seen the numbers and it just seems to me that the system , the traditional publishing pipeline , is totally overwhelmed . You know , if not .
Speaker 5Here's the thing . I mean , yeah , I don't think it's ever been easy and yeah , I think it's very difficult . Here is why I traditionally publish and probably would only continue to write if I was traditionally publishing . Because I can't do the other stuff . I can't make a cover , I can't edit my shit , I can't put a comma where it belongs , I can't learn that Amazon algorithm or the Facebook buying ads . I don't want to know it . It sounds like hell . I'd rather die . And if I can't sell 10 books with Penguin behind me , I sure as shit can't do it with Ann Garvin behind me , and even with the tall poppies , like I just know , I just know . So I . That's why I go for a traditional publisher , because I know my skill base and it's writing a story and then I can do social media and other kinds of things if you want me to , but the enjoyment of the other stuff is so low that I couldn't do it .
Speaker 4It doesn't have a lot to do with writing .
Speaker 5It doesn't for me , and I like to write . I'm good at that .
Speaker 4And .
Speaker 5I really would not be like I , and I would also say and this is the one thing I would say probably that's true of being older , but I don't know if it's across the board . True , but it's definitely true for me . I have pushed rocks up hills for the last 60 fucking years . I cannot keep pushing a rock up a hill and for me , learning the Amazon algorithm , the Facebook thing , making a cover , that is just too many rocks up too many hills for too little ROI for Ann Garvin I do not judge anybody . If they're good at it and they want to do it , I'm like hell yeah , do your thing . I just know that I can't do that anymore .
Speaker 5Now , maybe when I was , I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to do it when I was 40 because I had little kids . But maybe if I was younger and didn't have kids I might have been able to do that . But I had a hell of a time just getting my PhD and staying sane , because it was columns of numbers and research and writing , you know , and I just can't do that anymore . So I think for me that's . I'm just speaking from me , though .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 5Really , truly , I really am Otherwise , I just think you know what , if you want to do it and you want to have a book out there , and you're okay with selling whatever you can sell , I love that for you , I love it for anybody . And I think it's wonderful that self-publishing is available . I do , but I just know for me I can't do it , I just get too tired .
Speaker 5So you wouldn't do if you were just getting started now , you wouldn't do anything differently , You'd still try to do it that way um , if I was just getting started as a writer now , yeah , yeah , I know that I couldn't do it like I just really truly know I maybe wouldn't know because I wouldn't know the lay of the land , but knowing what I know now , if I started now , yeah , even more so I'd be like that , yeah , but if , but if I , you know , if I was naive about it , probably I'd do it and then I'd , you know , want to die . But it's a lot of that . It's me A lot of that is just , I don't want to learn that Like it's stuff , like it's like it's like I don't want to learn a lot of things , like I don't want to learn accounting either .
Speaker 4No , I don't want to learn accounting .
Speaker 5Yeah . So , like , what I'm saying is , I guess I just don't want to learn those things and it's not . It's not really about self-publishing , per . You know what I'm trying to say . I'm not really talking about self-publishing versus the other . I'm just saying I can't do that stuff .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 5Like any other skill that I couldn't do Right . I think it's great for people and Jane Friedman is . She is really getting behind the self-published people and giving them as much help and support as she even has the you know a list now for for self-published books that are doing incredibly well . She's got like a top 10 or a top 15 list that you can make . So you know , I love that . I just know that under . I'm just so grateful that I get to do it traditionally because I would be a washout otherwise because I know your Instagram page is pretty awesome .
Speaker 4Thank you .
Speaker 5But it's yeah , gratefully , people like it , but I also don't think that like not necessarily . I don't think Instagram necessarily sells me a lot of books . I think my posts are for the people that know me and follow me and might want to see what I do . Reels are when I want to reach someone greater , but I would say and I think everybody should hear this , and maybe you've heard me say it before or not , but I do think it's the most of anything that you remember me say today is that I went viral for 6 million and I maybe sold 19 books , but I was at the Irma Bombeck conference speaking and I know people were buying it in buying my book while I was teaching . So probably the 6 million sold three .
Speaker 5The reason that I want you to hear me say that is and why that's so important is I know most people get depressed . When I say that to people , they're like oh my God , that's terrible news . I'm like it isn't , though . It means that you should just keep writing your books , you don't have to worry about going viral , yeah , like people are always
Meet Anne Garvin: From Academia to Authorship
Speaker 5like what works ?
Speaker 5What should I do ? And I'm like you know what ? Nothing or everything , which is what I say Nothing works and everything works across your career . So , like , did I make connections ? Yeah , Did that parlay my idea to write Modern Love ? Yeah , Because once I saw that 6 million people were like this is amazing essay . I was like oh , people like me , they like my voice . I'm going to write something I always wanted to write . I'm going to write modern love and I think if I hadn't really gone viral like that , I maybe would have thought I don't know , you know , like , maybe I won't do it . Like it gave me confidence . It gave me the sort of validation that it's possible that people want to see more of what I'm writing , which I know that sounds like . Do you really have that much self-esteem problems from writing ?
Speaker 3Because you've been doing that for a long time writing a lot of books , but you know how it is you always have a crisis of confidence that people are reading it and liking it .
Speaker 5But the people , the reviewers , are like , like you know , Ann Garvin , give me my dollar back . I hate your book . This lady thinks she's funny . She's not funny , she's dumb , you know so . Then you're like mope off into your room . That doesn't drive you to write for times , right ?
Speaker 4Right .
Speaker 5So I think that has been really helpful , and now I can put that in my bio and I don't know Right , so I think that has been really helpful , and now I can put that in my bio and I don't know .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 5It'd be on my tombstone .
Speaker 4Well , does anyone have any questions for Ann ?
Speaker 7Hi , mel , hey . Hey , I don't actually have a question , but I just kind of wanted to . You know , kind of piggyback off of what you were saying . I've heard people who sell things say the same thing , not just books , but any kind of merchandise that viewership actually doesn't necessarily equate dollars . In a space like the internet , where everyone has a chance to put up anything a youtube channel , a facebook page , instagram and whatever you know we could be become so bombarded . I think what six million views does do is put you in people's minds so that if they hear or see something again or may make them think oh wait , maybe let me go see . Maybe not after the first time , but after maybe two , three , four times , let me go to amazon and see what she has out there . Um , yeah , so I think that , even though it doesn't translate to sales immediately , but that in this landscape of social media and the Internet , it's probably one of the biggest publicity yes , free publicity .
Speaker 5Yeah , it is . You might not be able to see one-to-one sales , but you will be . And the other thing that's really interesting is , thank God I didn't get you know , six million views for falling down . I mean , I actually got 6 million views for something that I wrote , which was very nice , but you know , there's a lot of people that are like I went viral because I fell over in my shower .
Speaker 5You know , like thank God that didn't happen . But yeah , you're right , I think that's sort of that idea of like nothing works and everything works , like we , really you , you , it's the fabric of your career . You work your way over and . But I also want to say that over over the years I've gotten calmer and calmer about , you know either , just like this sort of quiet , what quiet work that I do about writing , like I enjoy writing . I don't chase the market . I get an idea . I found people that like it . I keep moving in that direction .
Speaker 5I'm not running really fast . I don't have a book coming out in 2025 . But I do in 2026 . That that's a whole year where I didn't have a book , which is kind of nice for me . I see other people doing more and I think I get a little piece of , a little pinch of , and then I think it doesn't matter . I couldn't do that even if I wanted to . And then I , you know , go get some sunshine and take a nap and I guess , if there's anything the age I think does for you when you are , I just wrote a piece about this that's going to be coming out in my newsletter and it's something like I'm a racehorse I'm not really a thoroughbred and it's hard to get a racehorse to calm down and over the last bunch of years this little racehorse has calmed down and I think it's because of you know , seeing how hard you work and you can work at , you know , star speed and sell 10 books , or you can work at a normal person speed and sell eight books .
Speaker 5Like the harder you work doesn't always mean that you're going to sell more books and so it's good to like know that . But you know , I think that after having so many careers that I have , I think that I've seen that more and more and I've been able to be a little bit calmer about it . You know , people all want to break through and I'm telling you , it's interesting , I would love to break through in the way that somebody like you know , like lessons in chemistry or something , like you know , like lessons in chemistry or something . But I also worry about that because I had one very popular day and I was like oh my .
Speaker 5God . I'm so tired . Leave me alone , like I was , like I would suck at being Julia Roberts , like it would just be so bad for me . So I think staying mentally healthy is the job when you're doing this . Yeah , and the way that you can connect , you know yeah .
Speaker 7Mo , so I'm sorry . My next question is it has to do with this , I will say very weird for a lack of using , for not using other words landscape that we're going through right now , and especially with the doing away of DEI , as some mediocre white men believe , the definition of it , which it's far from so . With that being said , we know that writing has always and in the publishing industry , has always been elitist . It's elitist . Writing was always an elite thing . It was always an elite thing . It was a thing of leisure and what men did , intelligent men , and what men did , you know , um , and intelligent men .
Speaker 7So , you know , with this uh , uh , landscape changing rapidly and forcefully and disrespectfully , when the publishing industry were trying to do more DEI , they were trying to be more inclusive . How is this now going to affect the publishing industry in you know , uh , from your perspective , someone who's in it , someone who's hearing the inside conversations on how they must now respond to their you know traditional publishing , the EI efforts , like what is this now going to look like , moving forward , at least for the next four years ?
Speaker 5Oh , that's such a good question , that is an excellent question , especially , you know , for today especially , or just this week , you know . And so here's what I would say that I think is hopeful . The people that are editors and agents are people that are not getting paid very much and they do it because they love it . They're mostly women and they have had enough experiences of being the lesser than for a long time . You know that over the bunch of years here they may or may not have been and you know , wrongly so quite aware of the racism , the lack of diversity , the lack of voices , but I think that they are more aware of it now . Here's the other thing Editors and agents , they're liberals and so because of that , they may not be able to use the language of DEI anymore , but that doesn't mean they're not going to do it , and in fact it is their way of resistance . And so what I'm hearing is there is a piece of resistance that they can do without using the language of DEI , and they're not going to be able to use the language of DEI , but that doesn't mean they can't say I want this book , oh , is it from a woman ? Oh , I didn't even realize . You know what I mean . So the good news I think there is that they are not held to the same language accountability as like , say , hospitals , are Like hospitals have to take out all kinds of language , right , but publishers can choose books that they like and they market them , and all they have to do is get past their marketing people in terms of whether they can market it or not , and then they can purchase a book . So I think what we have going for us is that liberals and readers you know we're not book burners and the people that are in those decision positions are women and people that do it for the love of reading and are always still looking for a good story . And so I think I think , do men still get most of the money ? Yeah , I have a good example of that that came . Two books that came out at the same time Still got most of the money ? Yeah , I have a good example of that Two books that came out at the same time by one was a man and one was a woman , both big , big publishers on both sides , and the amount that they did for the man was so outrageously more than the one they did for the woman . Having said that , the woman is doing better , her book is better , so , and you know , that's not because he was a man that wrote it or anything like that , but it was very interesting to see the disparity in support . But those money questions are at a different level . Those putting the money into the book is not how the book got chosen . Those people aren't choosing those books . So that is what I'm , that's kind of what I'm hearing .
Speaker 5The other thing I will say is that I think that we will probably see , we will probably see editors and agents looking for books that are not , I don't know , super depressing . Like I like , yeah , and I was talking to my editor and she was like I can't read another book where the dog dies . And I was like , do you have a lot of books where dogs die ? And she's like , yeah , I want to tell everybody stop writing books that dogs die . I'm not going to buy a book where a dog dies .
Speaker 5And I was like , wow , like I would never . I wouldn't even give my dog an ingrown toenail , let alone kill them . I wouldn't even give my dog an ingrown toenail , let alone kill them . And so she was like and I can't do any more . You know , violence against women books . I can't do any more of that and I need to , so I just thought I was so kind of interested in hearing it and I think what we're taking from that is there are people who like stories and they're as bombarded by the news as we are , and they're liberals and they're women , so that sounds pretty hopeful actually .
Speaker 5I think it's hopeful and one of the reasons I think it's hopeful is that they're taking my silly stories .
Speaker 5They're taking my silly stories and all the stories are usually much deeper about , you know , feminine feminism and choice and a lot of things , sort of a Trojan horse minor , large , you know big issues in a Trojan horse of jokes and I think that's great because that means that you know there's a lot of women to make it into the choices and I think that's great because that means that you know there's a lot of women making the choices and I like that a lot and that's not . I don't think that is I don't know that it's going to be harder for men in that right Because men always get picked . Like we say that women are the readers , right , and more women get published than men . But it's like 40 , it's close 48 to 52 or something . It's not overwhelmingly like 70 percent of women get picked and you know 40 or 30 get men . It's it's much closer to 50 , 50 , even though it's mostly women reading and that we do know unless you are are reading nonfiction and you're a man , then they tend to read a lot of nonfiction .
Speaker 4Well , before we sign off , I just wondered . I was going to ask you what you've read lately that you would recommend that we read .
Speaker 5Where is it ? I okay , for one thing , I really this is a great book . It's great because it's got a good plot , but it's literary , like it's really beautifully rendered . I think it's a really good book . Snowbirds , it's called by Chrissy Clancy , but I read this book . I don't have it up here . I loved it so much . I loved it so much that , like , I can't stop thinking about it and it's called Himself . It was written in 2016 .
Speaker 4Look , look , what Mary Beth has it yes .
Speaker 5Did I tell you ? Did I tell you about it ? Oh yeah , because it's Irish . Oh god , have you started reading it ? Oh , my god , you guys , it's so good , so it's got a little bit of magical realism , but not like Gabriel Marquis Marquez , it's not like you know , it's not like so swirly and it's it's set in set in Ireland . It's got Irish dialect . The story is about this guy that comes back to his small town in Ireland because he wants to know what happened to his mom . He was dropped off at an orphanage . He meets this cast of Irish characters that are so fantastic , while , like the dead , the ghosts of the town , are sort of hanging around , but they're not talking , they're just doing , they're just like hanging around .
Speaker 5And this does not sound like a great read , but I loved it . I and I I don't have a lot of books that I would say that I loved , but I loved it . And I don't have a lot of books that I would say that I loved , but I loved it . And I think one of the reasons that I loved it is the voice was so fresh for me , so different , so , oh , some of the sentences were so good that I loved it and so I loved it so much that I bought two more of her books like the Next Day , and I haven't read them yet but I will because I'm totally jazzed about her . So I think that one is a really good one . What else am I reading ? I know everybody is so jacked up about all fours and I have read . I got halfway through and then kind of gave it up , so I'm sure I'll read it again , and I just saw that it was optioned , I think , for television , and I like her language , I like her brain , I don't know that .
Speaker 6I like the story no-transcript because they seem to age very quickly . So I just wonder how you do that , what your advice is on , uh , as you be in the query process and you had comps when we did the program but now I'm not sure those comps are going to work anymore how you then find your new ones , or how you seek out what you seek out .
Speaker 5Yeah , that's . It's such a good question because comps are so important , right and so and lots of people have different viewpoints about this but I will very often I think you guys probably know this is that I will pick a movie and I don't care what other people say whether that's a good idea or a bad idea . I don't care because I think it's a good idea . Because when I say this is a mix of Little Miss Sunshine and something , people go , oh , I know what that is . But if I say this is a mix of Little Miss Sunshine and something , people go , oh , I know what that is . But if I say this is a mix of himself and something people are like I don't know that book , right or so , and you can't really go with like , so I'll say this is a mix of Little Miss Sunshine because of the quirky characters , this is a mix of Little Miss Sunshine because of the quirky characters . And then I'll pick a book and I'll say because of the dynamic way the plot move forward , or something like that . So even when they don't know what the book is , I give them a little look into why I chose it , like , but you have to be careful not to give your book a review when you say that so , like you know , like because it was epically written by a movie star , like a superstar , like you have to be , like I like you know the very classic three act structure or something like that , so that they can go okay , that was informative , it's going to be quirky and it's going to have a good plot or whatever . And so I know that you know , in graduate school we're a little bit stuffier about like , okay , you got to pick two books or like go ahead and read the canon in there , and I do think that's important . But you know , not everybody is going to know that .
Speaker 5Now , the other thing I would do is , depending on who your agent is that you're querying , I would look to see what they have in their thing and you can say it's like the Art of Racing in the Rain and something , because that agent had that book and so and I would also give a little nod to it's got the quirkiness of the Art of Racing in the rain or whatever it is like , so that you don't say I'm the next Harry Potter or whatever .
Speaker 5You know , you just have to be like humble , but also tell them , give them a little nod and then if it's a book they publish , then they're like oh , okay , I know that this person did their research and I recently somebody said to me it wasn't somebody in our program , so don't even think to try to think who it would be . It was somebody else , like somebody at a conference , and they were like oh , I have to do that with every person I query . I was like yeah , you fucking do . Yeah , you're applying for like a job with them . You should fucking know who they are . Like yeah , and they're like well , that's gonna take a long time .
Speaker 5Like jesus christ , it takes a long time to go to med school , if you want to be an actor you gotta go to med school , you want to be a publicist , you gotta fucking do the work . It makes me insane , so yeah .
Speaker 6You know that's the kind of thing that gives all of us , I think , a lot of hope . Yeah , you know , when you tell us someone's thinking like that , you're like okay at least I can work that out , at least no more than that person .
Speaker 5Listen , I can tell you right now I've said this probably to all of you . I bet I have said it to all of you at one point or another and that is this the shit that shows up , your shit , your shittiest shit is so much better than the stuff that's showing up in their boxes , and the only reason they haven't been picked so far is just because you haven't really found the person that is the person for you . And that sounds hard , I know , because because , like I used to think that if you had a really good idea , any agent would pick it . And that is not how it is . They might go . That's an awesome idea . I love that kind of book . I read that kind of book . I don't represent that kind of book .
Speaker 5And when they say that they go , I don't know what editor I would send that to , and they are not going to do the research to find it , because that's not . They work with certain people . They trust them . Each of them trust each other . It's no different than you , somebody applying for an internship at your job , you know . So you just have to think like people are always saying , well , it's such a good idea , why didn't they take it ? There's a million reasons . Stop , just move on , because you just , you know it's like me dating a million men and having somebody go I wish I would have dated somebody younger Like I gotta go . It just it's a release for you Go find the person that's better for you . And and yeah , it's going to take a while and , you know , some people get kind of I don't know , some sort of magical gift with it , I don't know . But you know , it seems like it is easier for some people than others , but I would probably say they're lying to you , because it's not easy and I hate it with people .
Speaker 5I just went to an author thing and the guy said he said to the group , somebody said well , do you chase ? Like how do you know what people will want for publishing and did you think people would be interested in reading this part ? He goes . You know , in my end of my career now he goes . I'm so lucky I don't have to think about things like that and I had had a conversation for an hour and a half with them two weeks ago . That was only that . So I was like you , little motherfucker , tell the truth . So I just can't stand it when people don't tell the truth . It just drives me crazy because it doesn't help anybody . But I do think you know you have to spend less time believing people's bullshit and more time going OK , I'm a reasonable person . I went through an MFA . I know what people want . I'm just going to keep trying and then like , maybe my query needs a little fixing , maybe I need a better hook , maybe I'll , because I you know . I know I've said this before , I just don't know who I've said it to .
Speaker 5Bummer Camp was written in 2016 and published in 2024 . Tell Two Friends , the book I'm working on right now . I wrote it in 2017 . I've ripped it to shreds and now it will be published . It's due in September , but it'll be published in 2026 . That's almost 10 years for a book .
Speaker 5You know , it's just hard and nobody wanted it . Because they were like nobody wants a funny and sad thriller and I'm like they will eventually . And now they do , you know . And so , and Bomber Camp was like that's too weird . They were like that's too weird , like nobody cares about a camp in the middle of Wisconsin . I'm like , right , we have 250 people on our waiting list right now to come to Bummer Camp in Rochelle , wisconsin , two and a half hours from Madison Wisconsin , in Rochelle , wisconsin , two and a half hours from Madison Wisconsin . 250 people on the waiting list right now to come and hang out where the wood ticks are , like like it's so interesting , and with that from 10 states all over . So you know , you just have to sometimes have faith . And then , when it gets bad and you start to hate you , your book and yourself , you needed a little break and some Prozac and that's what I did . Oh my .
Speaker 5God . Yeah , it's like it's , it's just a . Yeah , it's like it's , it's just a , it's very . It's funny because I think that and not you guys , because you have really done the hard work . You . You're in grad school , you were in grad school .
Speaker 5But I think too many people think I can I read , I can write a sentence , I could write American English , I could write a book . Or they think they read a book , they saw the weakness in it and now , because they know what went wrong in that book , they think if they wrote it they'd write it right . I've never written a sentence in their life , you know . So it's just a little like it's like this strange ego that people have about writing a book , like I could do that , I just don't have the time . And you know you guys know better , but you still have the same insecurities . So you should say to yourself I kind of know more than I think I know , and and and . Remember that and keep going . You know it's really . It makes me so happy to hear that people are still working on their books , like Jonathan , I know his is in a drawer right now just waiting for him to pick it back up and to hear that , jamie .
Speaker 6I'm actually at the editing now . I'm doing it .
Speaker 5You finished it ? Okay , good , Because I'm waiting for it . I know Mary Beth is writing and Mo , actually did we talk ? Are you writing ?
Speaker 5You must be . Yeah , so I just this is what is good , and I think all of you have done the work and deserve to be in this meeting here today . But also , you know , feeling good about what you're doing . There's an awful lot of people that feel good about their doing that should not feel so good about their work . That's what I worry about . Yeah , you don't have to Leanne , I don't think you have to worry about that , I know . I think that there are people that should worry about it and they are not worrying about it .
Speaker 5You know that one phrase they said there are people a whole lot less qualified doing the dream that you have for yourself right now . That is the truth , you know . And just because those people are published doesn't mean they're better than you Not by a long shot . Some of those people got lucky , or they found some dumb agent or some dumb editor . That's very young and you know , my daughter just sent me this . Sometimes she sends me , she just sends me these terrible books sometimes that get published , and there is recently a huge book that has more reviews than I am and it's about a doorknob that became sentient and fell in love with the woman that lives in the apartment and eventually he comes alive and they have sex . But he can't leave the apartment and the landlord's going to kill her and it's called like Room 69 . It's not surprisingly , and it has more reviews than my book , and it's so . There's a whole genre right now where we're on inanimate objects , become sentient and have sex with women and those books are going white who wants to chase that trend ?
Speaker 5yeah , don't chase that trend . I think you do have to be a certain age to do that trend . I don't know . Like my Megan was like setting , she's like mom , I'm like to me oh my god . Yeah , you have to like center yourself and know what you learned , because you really , honestly , you had a great program , you're in a good program and I've taught at three and this is the best one I've taught in by far . The other one got shut down because of sexual harassment .
Speaker 4One of them . Oh , my Wow yeah .
Speaker 5So , so anyway , thank you for listening .
Speaker 8That wraps up today's Crab Chat Chronicles with JD Mayer . Thanks for joining us . If you liked the episode , please comment , subscribe and share . For show notes , writing workshops and tips , head to jdmayercom . That's jdmayercom . While you're there , join JD's mailing list for updates , giveaways and more .