Season 4 Episode 7: Behind the Scenes of an MFA: Navigating Writing, Publishing, and Community

Ever wonder what really goes on behind the scenes of a Master of Fine Arts program? Today, we sit down with Drexel University's MFA alumni, Jamie Jenette, Mo, and Tori, who share their transformative journeys through the world of writing and publishing. Jamie talks about her leap from high school teaching to the creative freedom of novel writing, fueled by intellectual curiosity and motherhood's challenges. Meanwhile, Tori reveals her path from self-publishing romantic suspense novels to refining her craft through her MFA experience. This episode uncovers the reality of pursuing formal education as a writer and the diverse paths one can take—MFA or not.

Balancing passion with practicality is no easy feat, but our guests offer invaluable insights into making it work. Discover the intricacies of navigating the academic landscape post-COVID, the balancing act of passion projects versus career-driven writing, and the importance of building a robust support network. From the unique flexibility offered by MFA programs during tumultuous times to overcoming the hurdles of returning to school as an adult, Jamie and Tori provide an honest, relatable look at the trials and triumphs of their journeys. Networking and community-building emerge as crucial elements in a writer's development, reinforcing the idea that the connections made during such programs are priceless.

Finally, we confront the gritty realities of the publishing industry, from financial burdens to the elitist expectations that often accompany it. Jamie and Tori share their experiences with querying, the art of staying true to one's original vision amidst feedback, and the challenge of genre shifts in a fluctuating market. As the conversation wraps up, we delve into practical advice on maintaining ties with mentors and peers post-MFA, exploring how these connections can support ongoing growth and success. Join us for a candid exploration of what it truly means to pursue a writing career in today's ever-changing literary landscape.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.

Speaker 2 0:38

In season four, episode seven of Craft Chat Chronicles, we're talking about MFAs and your writing career. Do you need an MFA to be a professional writer? Are they worth having? Are they valuable, are they not? As many of you know, I'm co-chair of Drexel University's MFA Alumni Association, so I'm having a candid chat today with members of Drexel's alumni, basically talking about their writing journey and the MFA experience and if they thought it brought value or if they thought it didn't, and just basically giving their candid reviews on an MFA experience and on their experience at Drexel Should be fun. So listen and learn. If you're considering an MFA, this might give you valuable insight on whether or not an MFA program is for you. Again, this is season four, episode seven of Craft Chat Chronicles. Let's get chatty. You want to lead, jamie, since I just talked to you last.

Speaker 3 1:44

Yeah, I've always been writing. I was an English teacher, taught English, high school English, and then I taught English composition and always thought about writing. And when my kids were little I did a lot of writing when I always throughout my life. But then when my kids were little, I used to write novels for fun and it would just be a way to escape being stuck at home all day. Not that I didn't love it, but there were moments I needed some intellectual stimulation so I would start writing stories and then I really had this one idea that became my first novel and then I wanted to do it justice. So that's when I started looking at programs and that's what brought me to Drexel's.

Speaker 2 2:32

Awesome.

Speaker 4 2:33

How about?

Speaker 2 2:33

you Tori.

Speaker 4 2:36

So I have been writing off and on for several years and I started independently publishing back in 2012 or 2011. I had a romantic suspense series picked up by a small indie ebook publisher and I had a few sales and I have a few readers. But I always felt that I couldn't. My stories just didn't have that staying power that some of these other authors have Like, oh, they're just love't have that staying power that some of these other authors have, like, oh, they're just love the stories. And and I wanted to really hone my craft of storytelling. So you know, I could, so people can love to love the stories that I was writing.

Speaker 4 3:20

And because I really, I was passionate about them and I said, well, let me see about an MFA program and the company that I work for now, when I first started, they had this flyer about Drexel MFA get 50% off an MFA. And so I looked at Drexel and I reviewed the courses that they offered and they also offered a screenwriting course. They're not really supposed to, but I said, wow, that's also great, because wouldn't it be fantastic if a romance could be made into a Hallmark movie? So you know these big dreams and ideas, and so I applied and really the best thing about the MFA program in my experience aside from meeting all these great writers and reading their stories cause they've been wonderful and just just the talent is fantastic Was that one-on-one time with our thesis packet exchange instructor.

Speaker 4 4:20

I mean, just getting that feedback alone was just invaluable really. You really couldn't put a price on it and it was worth what I paid for the MFA, in my opinion and I'm still talking with her today, even after graduating, and we're going to have a Zoom meeting in February to see how my querying is going. So it's just. That was the reason why I joined the mfa program and very happy I did who's your packet exchange, professor tiff marcello so she is a romance writer, contemporary romance.

Speaker 4 4:55

She has a lot of books with harlequin romance and with a couple other publishers as well, so really enjoy her. She's fun. Yes, you do not need an agent to submit to Harlequin. They have a ton of different lines. They just ask that you read extensively in their lines. So I plan, after this next round of querying doesn't get me an agent, I plan on probably revising my manuscript because it is a little long for Harlequin. It's a rom-com but Harlequin likes much shorter because they're category romance. So I'll probably revise it down a few thousand words just to get it in and just submit it to them and say, hey look, tiff, read it. Please give me a contract you said you self-published.

Speaker 2 5:38

What were the titles of your self-published books and what name did you tell self-plish under I?

Speaker 4 5:43

self-published under K Victoria Chase. I also self-published under Zoe Lane, a M Ellis. There's another one I also self-published there's a few and so I wrote a romantic suspense series the Santiago brothers has about four books in it and the Virginia justice series Cause I used to live in Virginia so I wrote about us marshals and things like that and I wrote contemporary romance series the Springfield sisters. I think there's four books in there. So just a lot of a lot of different, a lot of different things.

Speaker 2 6:27

That's cool, jamie. Quick question Cause I didn't have you mention your book. So mention your book and mention what you were working on before Drexel, real quick, and then we'll get to Jeanette.

Speaker 3 6:39

Sure, I did historical fiction. I don't see myself as sticking with historical fiction, but this was a historical fiction 1920s, eastern Pennsylvania, focusing on American eugenics, and other than that I've done a lot of short stories and poetry, and I've since been working on thrillers and a little bit of YA, so I'm not quite sure I've got a lot of things that I'm working on. My newer piece is a YA novel and I want to go back to my thriller at some point once I take a break from the YA.

Speaker 2 7:15

Love your work, your current work, your book that's in stores, that's out and about.

Speaker 3 7:19

Yeah, that's the historical fiction, the Invisible Ones I know, but there you go you didn't get the name.

Speaker 2 7:24

I was trying to say the name.

Speaker 3 7:25

Oh, yeah, yeah, the invisible ones.

Speaker 2 7:28

Very good, good, jeanette, your turn.

Speaker 5 7:31

What was the original question?

Speaker 2 7:33

Sorry, Tell us about your writing journey, if you had anything that you were working on before. Like she independently published some things and you know what led you to Drexel.

Speaker 5 7:45

Oh, what led me? Because I know the question had to do with the MFA programs. So when I was a kid, I liked writing, but I never really took it as a serious thing until I took a creative writing class in college and I really loved it and that led me to my first MFA program in my 20s. It wasn't the best program for me At that time. I think literary fiction was what most MFA programs were focused on, and I wasn't that type of writer, so it actually made me think I wasn't a good writer and just kind of let it go for a while.

Speaker 5 8:29

And then, during the pandemic, I wanted to get back into a writing community and so I was looking, you know, for online programs or courses and I ended up I don't even know how I Drexel just came up and I saw it was low res and there was this acceptance of genre writers. But also at that time they had the screenwriting cohort. But also get to know people who are genre writers. Like you, you're a fantasy writer and it actually helps me with my writing and being able to read and learn what other people were doing and understand. Oh, I wasn't a bad writer, I was just into something else that's championed in Drexel's program. So, going from there, I'm a screenwriter, so I don't really have anything published, but I'm working on two. Well, one fantasy screenplay and the other one I'm trying to figure out what it is, but it takes place in South Korea that's cool.

Speaker 4 9:46

That is very, very cool yeah, if I may, I want to piggyback off what jeanette said. That's another reason why drexel appealed to me is because of the genre fiction and the just the different types of horses that they had. That wasn't specifically on literary, they had short fiction and you know pretty, which is something that I do in my day job.

Speaker 2 10:05

So yeah, you know what's cool to me about the program, with it being a new program, they're still like figuring it out and adding things. So it's like I look at a lot of the classes that you guys have now and I'm like, man, I didn't get that. Yeah, they're super brought to me too. Very true, what brought me to drexel was the same thing that brought you to. I saw the ad I think I was on twitter and they had the ad for the 50 off and then I was like, oh, because it was covid and everybody was at home and you couldn't go anywhere or do anything. So I was like, well, I might as well, you know, go to school and this time, study something I actually have been doing since I was a child writing and I've been researching writing for years already. So I just wanted the degree and the networking opportunity to meet people and stuff. What were your goals when you started Drexel and how have they changed now?

Speaker 4 12:12

I can start. Goals were to improve the craft and actually get in an agent long-term traditional contract. I'm still probably going to self-publish because I also want to do horror, which is what I'm working on with my screenplay. But those are my goals and I guess it's still in progress.

Speaker 5 12:36

I guess for me it was. I was very much focused on, you know, becoming a screenwriter for a TV show and there was an LA residency that we were going to have. So I was interested in going to LA and networking and all of that and things didn't quite pan out that way because of the pandemic. But in time I realized that Hollywood might not actually be my main goal as a screenwriter Because I got so many things that I'm interested in that if I were to do that I would have to kind of step away from my own interests just to get into something, you know, get into a job. And I think right now I want to do the research and focus on the type of stories that I want to write and eventually, hopefully maybe produce some shorts and that sort of thing. And if it gets me there, great. If not, I'm happy with writing and producing the small things that I can do producing the small things that I can do.

Achieving Goals and Overcoming Challenges

Speaker 3 13:47

How about you, jamie? Yeah, I, my goal really was to learn the craft and to make a get a community of writers, and I feel like I accomplished that. I was a professor before. I was teaching English comp, so I continued teaching English comp, so I continue teaching English comp and, ironically, I got a good position as a education professor, which is what I was years ago, and so I'm not even teaching English composition anymore, but I still am writing and I, you know, I, I think that right now I'm, I'm I'm still writing, but pausing a little bit because, you know, my kids are, I'm going to have an empty nest soon.

Speaker 3 14:35

So I have a lot of that in my head and spending my last moments I have with my kids. And then I think that once I do have more time and and you know they, they aren't even around, not that they want to spend a lot of time with me now, but once they're not around as much, I'd really like to, um, almost think about writing more as a business and think about it. Um. It resonated a lot with me, jd, they the talk we had with Donnell and she had. She had said you know, people don't necessarily want to buy your passion project and ironically I was, like you know, kind of makes sense and I enjoy writing and I don't. I think that I feel like I'm at a place with my craft now where I can write like, maybe just do it in more, maybe with more of a business mind instead of purely my passion projects, and so I think I'd like to pursue that a little bit more.

Speaker 2 15:38

Love that, love that. My goals they were kind of met. I did a lot of self-study. I read every craft book known to man. I did a Breakthrough Bootcamp. I did Tessera Editorial's mentorship programs. I did like a ton of mentorship programs and read a ton. And then I had been doing the author interviews before I started doing them for Drexel. So I had years and years and years of studying publishing and craft.

Speaker 2 16:22

So on the craft side I learned some things but honestly, I came in with a lot of knowledge on it. So to me the part that I liked the best was the making new people and networking and stuff like that, and I think I accomplished that part of the goal. Like I said, I did learn something. And I think I accomplished that part of the goal. Like I said, I did learn something. So I reached that goal that I had because I wanted to learn and I wanted to connect with people. I think I kind of reached both goals. My mentor, Sadiqa Johnson, is going to be giving me a board for my book. So definitely keep in contact with the mentors, so you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 17:03

So I think I got out of it what I wanted to get out of it and I liked that the program was new because there was a lot of flexibility and and Nomi still like, will communicate with us about different things. We got to build the MFA alumni association from the ground, which was cool. Nomi still reach out if she's doing something sometimes and she wants, like, input from us, which is awesome. That's not something we could have gotten any other school because the program is so new. How have my goals changed? Really, honestly, I just want to maximize what we paid for. We got the network, we got the community. So now it's like trying to figure out how we can work together to all help each other on our goals and trying to figure out how to best seize on the opportunity that we paid a lot of money for, Even at 50% off. You know an MFA is not cheap or free. What was the biggest challenge you faced during the program and how did you navigate it?

Challenges and Growth in MFA Program

Speaker 3 18:05

Well, we started doing COVID for us so I knew going into it it was going to be a little bit of a challenge and part of it was COVID that gave me the flexibility to do that, because I was working from home and my kids were home and we all were like hunkering down. I had plenty of time to write the transition back to everything being in person and all at once. I think that kind of was a challenge for me. And finding the time to really make my packets I mean I went into it with the thesis for my packets. I wanted them to be the very best they could be, so that when I got the feedback it was going to be really be useful. And finding the time to do that was tough.

Speaker 2 19:00

Mine was the same. The biggest challenge for me was when we went back on campus because, like you, I was the COVID year, so everything was Zoom and everything was at home and I'm homebody, so I loved it, the pieces. And then when we went in for the going back for that last semester, I felt so strange. I saw this in the um, the silver dragons. I felt so strange. I saw this in the Silver Dragons. I felt so strange going back because they have the graduate classes on campus with the regular classes.

Speaker 2 19:32

So I'm walking around Drexel and there's like people who are my daughter's age, my 20 year old age, and I'm looking around feeling old as hell and then going online. So you don't need your student ID or anything. So I didn't even know I was going to need it to get in the buildings. I'm trying to get in the class and I'm looking around feeling old as hell and then going online. So you don't need your student ID or anything. So I didn't even know I was going to need it to get in the buildings. I'm trying to get in the class and I can't figure out how to get the buildings. These two girls show me and they're like laughing because I couldn't figure it out. So I finally get in.

Speaker 2 19:53

I go to my class, I go to the food truck afterwards to get something to eat and he's like, oh, I need your Drexel Dragons card. I'm like what, I don't have that. And then some guy's like, oh, I'll buy her a sandwich. She's probably a professor or something. Not at all, I'm a teacher, I'm here to learn how dare they?

Speaker 4 20:11

You should put them in a story.

Speaker 2 20:13

I know right. I get in the car, I'm driving home and there's a red light. I was managing a hotel at the time so I've been doing a lot of late nights at work. I fell asleep at the red light. Somebody honks to wake me up. So I get home and I'm hysterical, crying to my daughter. I'm like I'm never going back. No, this is for me. And she's like Ma, you're going back. She's like, if not, I'm going to demand my childhood, because I didn't babysit and help you get through school, for you to quit now. She was like I'm going to demand my childhood back. And I went back in there and got the degree and here we are. But yeah, that was the hardest part to me getting used to being on campus.

Speaker 2 20:54

How about you.

Speaker 4 20:55

Tori Dady, you're not old. I mean, I don't know how old you are, but you don't look or sound old. Thank you, I didn't find anything to be particularly challenging at all. Um no, I just I didn't have any major challenges, I, if I had to pick one. So when I came in, they stopped doing the screenwriting program and so I asked about class, because they ask us, you know, every year, every year, what classes do you want?

Speaker 4 21:23

And there was some friction there with Nomi wanting to bring in a class, because she said this isn't a screenwriting program. I'm like I understand that, but you know it's also you can tie that into writing, and a lot of novelists actually, you know, write their screenplays as well or write, you know, scripts based on their, their works. So I, you know a little bit, a little bit of begging her and she brought in a professor, and so it ended up well at the end. But other than that, you know, that really wasn't anything that I found to be challenging. You know it is a new program so there are going to be some, you know, bumps and I'm trying to figure things out and just just go with it. So that's. I know that's not helpful, but now it's helpful.

Speaker 5 22:14

I've been thinking about what am I going to say as everyone else is talking. I think the biggest challenge for the screenwriting program as it was was that there weren't enough screenwriting courses, because we most of the or half or most of the courses we took were the classes that you all took, which didn't pertain to us. You know, some of it was helpful, but we could have had similar classes that had to do with screen place. One of our questions why can't we have this exact same class but break down scripts Because that's what would have been helpful for us and there weren't as many options was just before we graduated I think it was that last semester where we were working on the thesis and you needed like one more elective and there wasn't a class for us. So we were like so what are we supposed to do? And then somebody suggested something and they were able to put it together. But yeah, but I think that's some of those reasons are probably why the program doesn't exist anymore well, at least they have the class again.

Speaker 2 23:33

Um yeah, who's the who's?

Speaker 5 23:35

teaching that one, or who taught that one?

Speaker 4 23:37

yeah, so it was taught last year in the springtime. It was was by Lex Fusco. Okay, was she? I don't, does she teach with Drexel before? I don't think so, but she's taught before and I actually just zoomed with her last week too, because she's looking at what I'm working on and she said she wasn't invited back this term. So, and there were.

Speaker 4 24:02

You know, there was a little bit of a issue in the beginning with the course, but the people who stuck around and actually did the course well, the issue was people thought it was, when they looked at the, the syllabus, they thought it was way too much work. And I gotta say I think we were spoiled with with what the work that we actually had to produce for the program, not saying it wasn't a lot of work, but compared to what Lex wanted, she said this is a, you know, screenplay one-on-one. You know this is the amount of work we did even in our bachelors for for one-on-one. And so she had to chop that down because people were not happy with the amount of work they had to produce. What was the work?

Speaker 4 24:45

The work was just, you know, having to produce something, I think, every couple of weeks. We had to have pages in and you know we're used to producing something once a month, you know, maybe answering a couple of questions on the bulletin board or whatever the board was the blackboard maybe once a week, once every couple weeks. So, uh, yeah, but the people who stuck around for the course, um, really enjoyed it and our zooms were very lively. So she's a, she was a great instructor. Very funny and, yeah, I think that was the only issue was the work that she had put in was just um, it was giving people anxiety because it reminded them of their BA days.

Speaker 2 25:29

You know what I would recommend to people who are considering an MFA program to have your thesis project done, because that's what I did. I took a book that I had already written and edited as much as I possibly could on my own to have Drexel's program help me with it, to get it over the line. Because, like you said, if you have to race to rush, then you're not going to produce your best work because you're trying to rush to get it in. And if you're rushing to get it in, then you're going to probably be getting a lot of feedback that, when you rather have the deep, substantial feedback, that's going to help improve your, your idea, your document, rather than just the window dressing stuff that you could figure it out on your own. So to me it was just you know, if you have it done at first, you can get deeper, more meaningful feedback because you got all the little stuff out the way that's exactly what I did too, jd.

Speaker 3 26:17

I finished my whole novel was done before I started the program and then the first year I did short stories with my packet exchange to get my craft down and then I rewrote. I set it aside and just rewrote my whole book, but I had already done a couple drafts Like it was finished. I just was making it better. But I don't know how you would really start something Like. It's not wise to start something from scratch.

Speaker 2 26:44

If that's going to be your thesis, a lot of people do, though, because I heard somebody else in a meeting we had previous before talking about how they were doing it that way. But that's hard, because you know that's hard because then you've got to try to make sure you're getting your rewrites and stuff in time and whatever, and you know.

Speaker 3 27:02

Especially if you're not that experienced. Right there are. If you have, like Tori, it sounds like you have a lot of books under your belt. I didn't have that many, and so for me I needed to do more rewrites than maybe I will hopefully in another couple of years, more than I think I do now. I needed to do that, but yeah, I think starting from scratch has really got to be, because you don't then get the best feedback, because you're getting feedback on probably stuff that you like. I don't want proofreading feedback or copyediting, you know, or even basic story. You want to get down to the nitty gritty when you're talking.

Speaker 2 27:43

You want to get to the developmental.

Speaker 4 27:48

I did the same thing. I came in with a book and then I ended up rewriting the whole thing and it ended up being utterly different than what I had brought in. And I started rewriting it, I think three times and when I was in the MFA program. So I must've written like 200,000 words. I mean it was so much work and we and I finished it after the programs. I stayed with the thesis instructor even beyond graduation to finish it. So, yeah, yeah, it was a lot of work.

Speaker 4 28:20

but yeah, I agree, I think if you come in with at least an idea, if you know it really well instead of starting from scratch, and there are a couple people who started from scratch and finished their novel during the program because that them took that course in order to finish the novel before they went into working with their thesis. Instructor.

Speaker 2 28:49

So if you had a friend that was considering an MFA program, what would you tell them are the pros and cons.

Pros and Cons of MFA Programs

Speaker 4 28:56

Pros are number one pro for me I've already mentioned it was the packet exchange instructor. That's the pro. Especially if you go in with something already written, you'll get matched with someone who probably is in your genre or knows it really well and is a published author. So that's definitely a pro. A con would probably be the class types or the types of classes that are being offered and when they're being offered and there's sometimes you might not get what you actually wanted, but they're always taking another pros. They're always taking feedback on what classes that you want to see and they'll find an instructor. So I would say, as early as possible, if you're looking at the program and you're, you see some courses online, but maybe there's something else that you want to take, like maybe there's not a genre that's represented in the courses that they've had in the past. I would recommend reaching out to know me and asking if this is a type of course that you can get. You know, and it probably would be one. So, and it probably would be one.

Speaker 2 30:04

How about you?

Speaker 5 30:04

Jeanette, are you asking about MFA programs in general or Drexel In general? Pros is definitely like networking and meeting like-minded writers. You know I have a lot of friends that I can talk to you from both of the programs that I've done. Um. And then there's I think learning craft, particularly in this MFA program, was really helpful, um, so and um yeah, especially someone who needs what's the word I'm looking for. But like structure, that structure of like a course and those sorts of classes, I think it can be beneficial. Cons it would definitely be the cost. I still don't know, like practically, if it's worth it, but I'm not a practical person, so for me it's always been worth it just in terms of the people I've met and I've grown as a writer. So you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 31:19

How about you, Jamie?

Speaker 3 31:20

Yeah, I would say prose is you gain a community If you put the work in. I mean, if you want to keep it, you have to keep that connection going, but it's available to you Definitely. You have dedicated time to work on your craft. You get a lot of feedback and structured activities to help really hone areas of your craft that you might be neglecting, that you wouldn't realize if you're just studying independently. I think the cons are that it's not an advanced degree with a set job, at least not a real, like a very plethora of jobs on the market where you can apply to this and boom, you're qualified on your investment. I'm not sure that it happens for most, unless you're really going to put the work in and pursue getting the job experience as well.

Speaker 2 32:33

Very true, that was actually going to be what I said, like mine, yeah, because MFAs are costly and there's a lot of writers that have books out that didn't go the MFA route. But definitely for the camaraderie, for the networking, for the knowledge of craft, those are good reasons to go. But to be honest, like I said, you could do it on your own if you couldn't afford a MFA program. There's a million craft books, there's a million classes, there's a million mentorship programs that people can take for a lesser cost if they can't afford to go. So I guess in the end it's up to you. You know what I mean, what you prioritize, because, like Jamie said, there's no guaranteed job at the end of the tunnel with an MFA degree. But you know you definitely get skill sets and networking opportunities that could be helpful.

Speaker 2 33:34

Would you agree to that, jeanette? Yeah, I'd agree to that. Let's ask Mo, now that she's joining us. Hello, how are you all doing? Good, doing good. We're gonna dive right in and grab you with a question. So tell us what brought you to drexel and then if you would recommend an mfa program to someone, and why, or why not.

Speaker 6 34:04

So, for me, what drove me there actually, like I came at it, was 2021 when I applied. So the world was very chaotic and it was. I think, you know, most people were reevaluating their life and, you know, trying to decide if they were where they wanted to be. And I kind of was one of those people and you know, it was kind of like I knew I always wanted to write but wasn't writing and it was just that time for me and actually I started looking for programs and I happened to. You know, I was looking at the major ones, of course. You know the Iowas and the Temple Michigan Hale-Wine.

Speaker 6 34:51

You know Wisconsin, I had been looking and actually it was an ad in the Writer's Digest about Drexels and it was new and it was the residency, and about um Drexel's and it was new and it was the residency and it was Drexel and it was like perfect, you know, was it 50% off? It was the 50% off, um, and so that's that's what drove me and and and it was also like um, you know, I just I liked the fact that the instructors or or professors were, you know, actual, actual, you know award, or you know um, you know best published authors who are published, um, credible, you know just, best published. Well, authors who are published credible, you know just, they can't revere credential, and that was important. And, according to the website, they had a screenwriting aspect to it. Like, hey, I'm not going to act like that wasn't a big draw. It was almost like everything that I could have actually wanted in a program. That's what drew me there.

Speaker 2 36:15

And would you recommend an MFA program to someone else? If somebody was telling you they were debating if they should or not, what are the pros and cons you'd give them and would you recommend?

Speaker 6 36:23

it a drexel period or just the mfa program?

Speaker 6 36:25

mfa program I don't really have, you know, I don't. I don't know if that's a good question for me because I I really don't have a con. Um. So, mfa program, I think that if you're looking for, you know you want the space to actually write, you know the time to write. If you need to, you know hone the craft. If you're, you know you're seriously considering, you know wanting to, you know write for a living. It's a yes for me.

Speaker 6 37:07

But I kind of know MFA program, I don't know, I don't have any Like the only kind for me. It's not my story. I mean, unless you could you have a community, that's of I don't know the word I'm looking for. If you have a community of and I'm using this for lack of a better one reputable, you know, writers that you trust, that's publishing, that's, you know, doing the work and you know that's doing the work. That's inside already, you know, then I might say, hey, why do you need an MFA program If, like you had for yourself, had been already sort of, you know, studying on your own for a decade? You know, I don't know if I would suggest that, you know you take a full-fledged program, maybe some classes that may interest you in your course of development. But what an MFA offers, I think which is really important is, you know, a writing, a community of serious writers.

Speaker 2 38:17

True, and feedback. You can't get feedback when you self-study unless you pay for it, you know. Or you could get beta readers, but but again, you'd need a community of writers because otherwise they might be giving you feedback. That's not helpful, you know. Right, like like one of my early beta readers and she was really great at some aspects of story, but she was really off my mark with others and I didn't know it then because I was too naive in my writing. But, like in one of the stories I was reading, she was really loving the grandmother character. She's like oh, you should focus more on her, but I was writing YA. Teens don't want to read about your grandma. You know the grandmas are the accessory to the story, but the young protagonist is the star. You know what I mean. So sometimes if you have the wrong people reading for you, they can hurt the piece more than they help.

Speaker 3 39:10

I taught, I did the TA program and before that I had been teaching at community college. So I transferred from there. I went to Drexel so I I was teaching at Drexel and the classes were really mostly paying for the courses, so it was kind of a wash there and that was a big incentive for me going, because I was able to cover the cost of my tuition by teaching and I think the experience of teaching there led to my position at Rowan where I am now. I think at least helped. I had experience that definitely helped with that. But it gave me also the confidence to be like all right, I want to do this on a more permanent basis.

Speaker 3 39:59

And so then I switched over. So I only ended up actually teaching one year in the TA program and then I left for my other job. But it um, it covered the costs of of the program for me, so it was. I definitely felt like it was worth it and then I I just everything I got out of it in the community and and those of us who you know are really working to keep together the programming and stuff I think it's still beneficial.

Navigating Challenges in MFA Programs

Speaker 5 40:26

I've gained long-term friendships out of it, and I did improve my craft.

Speaker 6 40:34

I do wish that I had done it the way Jamie did, you know, go in as a TA? I mean for the same reasons for her right, you know, it definitely would have been definitely more helpful because, even though it's a terminal degree, it's difficult getting into colleges nowadays like extremely difficult. So that was the direction I really wanted to go and there's a great possibility not 100%, but there's a great chance that I would have been able to transition into that space and I go on and end up teaching the system, even if it was just teaching a class to its direct system. It's time to start and on top of that, like she said, it sort of paid for itself. So that was pretty like a cool double benefit.

Speaker 2 41:22

Mm-hmm, she said it sort of paid for itself, so that was putting back a cool double benefit. What was your biggest surprise throughout the process? Anything you learned or experienced that you weren't expecting.

Speaker 3 41:45

I think I mean, maybe it's just how nebulous of a field it is and how it's constantly changing, and there does seem to just always be this there's just always something that you don't know, or that's not that you're not privy to is almost a better way to say it. And I feel like doing the MFA, I became privy to a lot, but there's still stuff like I just feel like I learned a lot about the field and I like it less now that I know more.

Speaker 6 42:27

I like it a lot less.

Speaker 3 42:30

And you know, and maybe that's just life and growing up and realizing that things are um, that it's, it's not, um, there are no even playing fields and um it's very it's, it's a very much who? You know industry more so than I than I think I anticipated and um, I think I anticipated and the pay structures do not really benefit creatives and so I guess, like that, all of that I did learn throughout the process of the program and graduating, but I think that that was really the biggest surprise for me.

Speaker 2 43:12

Very true.

Speaker 6 43:15

And to piggyback off of that I was going to say I was surprised at just how much I didn't know, you know, about everything about the craft, about the business, because even you know, and I've talked to people who've done different MFA programs and there is still to this day not much emphasis put on the business aspect. And that was the thing that I really did like about Drexel was like, from the very first class to the last, there was always that business of publishing, that aspect tied in there. But just how one to understand that it is a business and then what type of business it is, is actually elitist. You know, it's actually very elitist and I guess that goes back to, you know, writing, I mean writing, reading and writing.

Speaker 6 44:08

We take so for granted today, but you know, 70, 80 years ago it was actually a luxury for the rich, you know. So it was always elitist and you just just that was very eye-opening and like is again is you have to know. But it's also much more important who you know, so what much more important who you know. You know, um, so that that was the surprising thing to learn for me just how elitist it is. But as Jamie said, that's life, you know it was like you have to, I know, during landmines and figure out. You know how to get in the space and get to what you want.

Speaker 2 44:54

True, true, I know, during COVID everything was more remote, so that made it a little bit better, because most of publishing is in New York or LA, which are ridiculously expensive, and then to get internships, to get break-in if you wanted to be on the business side of it, a lot of them don't pay, or pay very little. So to your point about elitism. They, you know, expect that you can afford to just live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and get paid peanuts and not paid anything and then you're gonna give me two dollars for your book per book, and and you know it's yeah, it is just insane.

Speaker 2 45:36

Yeah, but hopefully, since they started, like the internships that I mentioned, a lot of them were online and that was like during COVID, and a lot of those were online at the time because of COVID. So hopefully they still offer a lot of things online that way, so the people who can't afford to live up there can still experience it. Let's see, mo, you missed this question, so I'm going to ask you what was the biggest challenge you faced during the program and how did you navigate it?

Navigating Post-Mfa Publishing Paths

Speaker 6 46:12

And how did you navigate it? So the biggest challenge for me was working full time and trying to work on my bank exchanges. That was pretty brutal. That was pretty brutal. That was pretty brutal. I mean because now you're talking about, you know, attempting to do that first draft, you know, but I think everyone's intention was to at least have a complete draft, just that first draft, by the end of the program and taking advantage of the fact that you had, you know, this exchange with an author and you know this exchange with um an author and you know, just trying to fit um my life into, you know, um that and and work and writing out pretty much a book was, was, was challenging.

Speaker 2 47:12

Is anybody doing anything as far as like querying or anything? Have any projects planned with their MFA thesis?

Speaker 3 47:26

Mayan was. The was my novel that came out in April. So I'm done with that. But it was great to see it actually in April. So I'm done with that, but but it was great to see it actually in print. It was very, very rewarding.

Speaker 6 47:39

And there's a actually was a really really good story, thank you. The writing the writing is great too, but the story was a really really good one. You did a really good, you did a really good job not just in writing it but telling that story.

Speaker 2 47:57

Yes, she did. I highly recommend that book. When we did the readings during the residency, the piece that I read, I ended up changing and making it the prologue. It was different. I altered it since that, but I I made it prologue in my book. Anybody else using theirs or I don't know, I'm.

Speaker 5 48:23

I'm just going back to rework mine, um, because I actually I wasn't happy with it when I graduated because from first draft to like the one that's, um, you know, when it was finished for graduating, it changed so much from my original intention because at that time I didn't really understand how to well, not that I didn't understand how to take notes, but I was taking them, I don't know. Not, I don't want to say too seriously, but I was making a lot of major changes that didn't need to be. And I realized later on I want to go back and make the story more of what my original intention was and not just what the people who read it Thought it should be. So I want to go back to that. I was going to say that was the one that we had read at the residency too.

Speaker 6 49:25

Oh, that's cool. I thought that was fun. Yeah, that's how we met. It is how we met. That was pretty fun. Yeah, that's how we met. It is how we met. Yeah, that was pretty cool. I so much happened, you know, the year after. I'm just kind of getting and I'm always like this is the weirdest thing, I'm two stories short and I just can't get these two stories. I just don't have two stories but I need them for the word stories. I just don't have two stories but I need them for the WordCamp. I think I'm going to start on something else and maybe by the time I get halfway through or by the time that I finish, at least the goal is, at least I may have the two to present, which may be or which may be good, you know, at least to have, you know, something to query along with short story collection. That's my name Two story short. I'm always two story short.

Speaker 2 50:26

How about you, Tori? Are you going to query yours? What's the plan for your thesis?

Speaker 4 50:31

Yeah, so I started querying in October, query round one. I sent out 12 queries and I got um rejected on all of them. There were four of them, four or five of them that I did not hear back from and then I got like um, the rest of them were form rejects right off the bat. So one of them I, I think, was in an hour. It was like a grief so and I spoke to my.

Speaker 4 50:58

I spoke to Tiff and she said contemporary romance is on a slump right now. She knows authors who have been trying to sell books for over a year and she just had her three book deal announced in publisher marketplace. She said it took her seven months to sell that to and I think it's to Harlequin, and she had a couple of books die once up, like at the editorial board they said no. So a lot of romance authors are um are struggling to get their books sold. I was like great, I guess I should have written that thriller. I was thinking about writing at the beginning, um, because I was going to write a thriller horror, so oops, but again, horror is big right now.

Speaker 2 51:43

Yeah, so make your next book that hard, yeah but, um, also ask her about historical romance. Maybe you need to switch historical.

Speaker 4 51:50

Yeah, switch it up yeah, um, I'm really on a horror kick right now. So I told her I was going to write the accompanying novel to the screenplay this year. I'm going to finish the screenplay, hopefully by March, but I'm going to do query round two next week and send it out to another, maybe 15. And then, and one of the one of the agents that reviewed our pitches asked for the manuscript. So I'm going to send it to her in that round and see what she says. And then, if I don't get an agent, I will do. I will send it to small presses for the next round, cause I really don't want to redo it for Harlequin. I would rather have it published the way it is, the length it is now. But if I have to, then I'll rework it for Harlequin and then I'll shelve it.

Speaker 2 52:45

If I were you, I would submit to the one that requested it last, Only because not completely last, because before the small presses. But the only reason I'm saying last is because if you get feedback from the other agents that reject it, they might give you some feedback that might help you revise or tweak it a little bit before you send it off to them. You know what I mean. Sometimes they give you a little information. Go ahead, ma.

Speaker 6 53:08

I was going to say you may want to think about contests, you know some of these two contests.

Speaker 2 53:16

That's true, they used to have a lot of Twitter contests and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 53:21

You can look in the marketplace Uh, what is it? The novel marketplace and they have a slew of uh contests.

Speaker 4 53:26

Okay, I'll look that up. Um not, I mean, I have a Twitter handle, but I'm not on Twitter, like the only social media I do is like Instagram, so, and I barely do that. I'm on Instagram I don't.

Speaker 2 53:39

I have a Twitter, but I haven't been on Twitter really in a long time since they took the guardrails off and people can say whatever. It's been less fun. Is everybody connected on social media and stuff?

Speaker 6 53:55

I'm not active. I mean, you went through setting all that stuff up. It's just too overwhelming for me. I want to, by the end of February, have my website up and I just kind of want to go through the website, you know, if it's just about somebody, uh, you know them being able to contact you. I'd rather them be able to contact me through the website. But social media is just way too overwhelming and if I do anything, I'm old. I am going to stick with Facebook and I'm coming to do a Facebook business page like this, because at least with Facebook you can schedule stuff ahead of time and kind of go back in and check it. I'm thinking about maybe paying my granddaughter to operate the social media part. That's that. I just don't like it. It's overwhelming to my spirit.

Building a Strong Writing Community

Speaker 2 54:58

All right. So, in closing, what would you guys like to say to anybody that happens to watch this and they're considering an MFA, and specifically a Drexel MFA? Talk to both.

Speaker 6 55:10

Know your, why Know your, why know your budget um and have realistic expectations like that.

Speaker 2 55:24

How about you tori?

Speaker 4 55:25

take it when it's on on discount, like we all did. Um, make sure, uh, you have suggestions and comments and concerns. Go ahead and reach out to Nomi, because she's very personable and she'll listen to them. Also, have a book story, a book idea or a story written if you want to work on with your packet exchange instructor I do think that's helpful or the um finisher, the novel course that they have, where you write out the novel. If you're doing a novel and uh, yeah, I didn't do the class because I already had one, uh, the book finished. But always come to the Poconos, uh, for the writing retreat, because that's where the magic happens.

Speaker 2 56:10

Absolutely, and join your alumni stuff. That way you can stay fresh in the minds of the professors and the people there. So when you're ready to network, when your book's coming out and you want them to help promote you, you have those contacts. You're not just a face that's lost in the abyss. Keep in contact with everybody and keep in contact with your community, because you're going to need them. When the program ends. You're still going to need feedback and reads and all kinds of good stuff and good information. If everybody's reaching toward the same goal, somebody will eventually make it and you know that person might be the one to help you up and help you in.

Speaker 7 56:44

Yeah, that wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Mayor. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.