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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
Season 4 Episode 5: Sell a Children's Book Now: Insider Tips to Break Into Educational Publishing with Sandra Athens and Mike Downs
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Unlock the secrets to success in the world of educational publishing with our special guests, Sandra Athens and Mike Downs, authors of "Sell a Children's Book Now: Quick Success in the Educational Market." Discover how they transitioned from teaching and reigniting dormant writing passions to becoming influential voices in this niche market. Hear their personal stories and learn how identifying gaps in educational materials and networking at educational conferences can propel you toward your own success in this field.
Join us as we explore the fascinating differences between educational and trade publishing. Sandra and Mike provide unique insights into the structured guidelines that educational writers must navigate, along with the creative strategies they employ to captivate young readers. We dive into the process of collaboration with editors, and the distinction between teacher and student materials, offering a deeper understanding of the intricate world of educational publishing. Hear firsthand how they craft content that resonates with both educators and students, and the importance of high-interest, low-readability books in today's educational landscape.
For those aspiring to break into children's literature, this episode is a treasure trove of advice and resources. From the significance of organizations like SCBWI to tips on researching publishers and staying current with market trends, Sandra and Mike offer invaluable guidance. They also discuss the benefits of educational publishing, including speed and instructional impact, while highlighting the critical need for diverse books and representation. Whether you're a seasoned writer or just getting started, this episode provides inspiration and practical advice to help you navigate the educational publishing market effectively.
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About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Craft Chat Chronicles
Speaker 1Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles , the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction . Here at Craft Chat Chronicles , we bring you expert interviews , insights and tips on writing , publishing and marketing . Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey . For workshops , show notes and more information , visit jdmyallcom . That's jdmyallcom .
Speaker 2In season four , episode five of Craft Chat Chronicles , we're going to talk about getting into the educational publishing market . If you've wanted your writing to be used to teach kids to read and wanted to be published by educational publishers , this is the episode for you . Today's guests are Sandra Athens and Mike Downs . They're authors and educators . They have a class at the Highlights Foundation On breaking into the educational market and they do classes and workshops at other places as well . They've co-written a book together called Sell a Children's Book Now Quick Success in the Educational Market . Again , that's Sell a Children's Book Now Quick Success in the Educational Market . Their book is available on Amazon , so you can race right out and buy two copies . Again , that's Sell a Children's Book Now Quick Success in the Educational Market . Their book is available on Amazon , so you can race right out and buy two copies If you want to learn about getting into that industry some more .
Speaker 2Today we also have my assistant and a special guest , jamie Grockett . Jamie has written the Invisible Ones ones and it is also available on amazon , so you can run out and buy five copies and give four to friends . They make great stocking stuffers , birthday gifts , valentine's gifts , anytime gifts . Jamie is the co-chair of the mfa alumni association at drexel university with me , jam Jamie is an educator . She also works for her school board and she has so many gifts and so many talents , and today , coast Hosting is one of them . So , without further ado , we're going to get this chat going , talking about breaking into the educational publishing market . Season four , episode five of Craft Chat Chronicles . Let's get chatty . Season four , episode five of Craft Chat Chronicles .
Speaker 3Let's get chatty . I'm Kristen Pleasure to meet you . Nice to meet you too . I was just talking to Sandra that I used to teach in the classroom and now I teach at Rowan University and I supervise student teachers , and so really I'm really interested to hear you know what your thoughts are today . Oh wonderful , how long have you two been ? I also signed up for your highlights .
Speaker 5Oh , excellent .
Speaker 3I'm really looking forward to it .
Speaker 5Yes , oh , wonderful , great . Yes , well , I've been working in the educational writing field for literally as long as I've been teaching , which is about 25 years . But you know , and my history is a little bit different than the typical way that people get into educational writing today . It's a little bit easier and Mike knows sort of the the routine way of getting in where you have a submission package and you actually submit this to publishers . I used to go to conferences and literacy , much like you , like the american library association , etc . And from there I approached publishers and said , hey , I think I could do this oh , that's yeah .
Speaker 3I'm really interested because I I did a little freelance work . I used to work for pe Pearson and I wrote the standardized tests . Yes , and I've written academic articles on teaching . But I'm interested to hear about about the publishing world , and I know JD is as well .
Speaker 5Well wonderful . Welcome to our session .
Speaker 3I think , you'll enjoy it very much hey guys . Hey JD .
Speaker 2Hello . How do you guys meet and begin collaborating with each other ?
Speaker 5Oh my , very briefly , I changed careers , oh , about 25 years ago , and went into teaching and I , of course , always was looking for good books to use with my students , which brought me to a lot of these educational conferences .
Speaker 5And I saw the books and I sort of thought to myself , hmm , I could do this , or there isn't a book on this and maybe I should write one . So that's the way that I got into it by actually seeing what was out there , being in a classroom , knowing what worked , what didn't work , and then approaching publishers . So it highlights , I actually was attending many of their classes , what didn't work , and then approaching publishers . So at Highlights , I actually was attending many of their classes not many , several of their classes and I took a magazine writing workshop there and I also took a fiction writing workshop there and , of course , fell in love with it . Everyone falls in love with highlights . And I met Paula Morrow and she was doing this educational workshop and I offered to come and assist her because I was starting to write in the educational arena literally about 20 , 25 years ago , and I came on and I worked with her for oh gosh , it was just under 10 years , maybe seven , eight years , and that is how I started at Highlights .
Speaker 4Okay . So that's where Sandra and I met , because I was looking to restart , like I had written a few books two decades ago a few kids books but never followed up . And then , in 2017 , I thought I should have just stayed writing , and I wish I had . So I'm going to start all over and get serious . So I went and signed up for a highlights educational educational market in-person four-day retreat and Sandra was one of the helpers and that really got me moving and that's where I met Sandra .
Speaker 4So we found out we had a lot in common with the way we wrote and both of us are kind of go-getters , which is not always the case in this industry that people are comfortable rewriting their manuscript over and over , which is not our style . So , um , anyway , that's how we met and then from then I think it was just a few , I don't know a little while later , we had we both decided to go to a Los Angeles winter conference summer conference , I guess for the SCBWI on our own , and then we kind of met up there a couple times in classes and in between by then I talked to her a couple times via email and I said you know what you and I are going to write together . It was an ultimatum . She told me no way .
Speaker 5I turned to see who he was talking to , because I did not realize he was talking to me , that we are going to write together . I kept looking who is he talking to ? But it turned out very good . Again , our writing styles are similar . We like to write with humor and we like to write kid-friendly materials , primarily at the second through fourth grade level . So there were a lot of similarities in there , and what started out as a meetup at Highlights ended up turning into more of an occasional partnership writing , which we continue to do today .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . And how do you guys ? How do you do the collaboration ? How does that work for you two ? Do you exchange chapters ? Do you write side by side ?
Speaker 4Well , we start , I guess , with coming up with ideas , and we've met several times over the years , just four or five days , just to do writing together in person , but mostly it's online or on the phone . So we'll come up with an idea and I guess , if we're together , we come up with an outline . And I guess , if we're together , we come up with an outline and then typically one of us takes that outline and writes the story and then it goes back and forth and the first couple of changes are pretty big and after that we just work it back and forth until we're happy with it . Isn't that right , sandra ?
Speaker 5Something like that no-transcript and how the story would look . So we did a lot of hashing out before we actually started to write it for the most part , but ideas often have a mind of their own , and so some ideas followed our outlines and other ideas just simply went on .
Speaker 4Many did not , and we each have our own place and our strengths . Like I'll write something and I'll get back from her , you can't say that I'm like what , why not ? And then for her she gets a little verbose at times and I'm like cut , cut .
Speaker 5Yeah , so we have strengths that compliment one another , and I think what I often bring to the table is my knowledge of the classroom .
Speaker 4Oh yes .
Speaker 5Kids and what I think Mike brings to the table that he totally ignores , like any sort of rules about you know what works in a classroom and what works with particular kids . So I know it sounds kind of like an odd couple , but it actually works out very well . I do tend to be a little cautious , mike tends not to be cautious , so having a nice blend of that mix , I think , speaks to our strength , right , yeah ?
Speaker 2How do you identify topics that are both educational and engaging for your readers ?
Speaker 5Well , I think , like I often think , of ideas as a challenge , like would I sit in front of a group of kids and present this idea , or would I read this book to a group of kids ? And then the answer always is well , if it becomes like a battle of just discipline , like the kids are busy doing something else because they're not at all interested in what I'm doing , not a good idea . On the other hand , if I think the book is going to keep them interested and motivated , based on what I know about kids , then that's a good idea . And I think we're usually pretty spot on . Mike , would you agree ? I mean , there's certain things kids are just drawn to .
Speaker 4Right . So if you're , you know you were talking about actual projects like the one that was supposed to be coming out with Astro . That's now on hold , we're not sure . But what we did is we took a very I don't know scientific topic or biology related , and we put humor in it so that the kids can learn at the same time as they're enjoying the book , time as they're enjoying the book . And a lot of our stuff tends to be that type of writing where we take an actual , you know , a subject that you might just have very dry paragraphs about and then we'll turn that into something that's humorous at times , to keep the kids engaged throughout .
Speaker 2I love that . Can you describe ?
Speaker 5the process of developing a manuscript for an educational publisher . Well , sure , so educational publishing is very different
Educational Publishing
Speaker 5from trade publishing . Those are the two primary methods of publishing today and the educational market other words that are used to describe that are work for hire . So you are actually assigned a topic to be writing about and you're typically told the grade level that you should be writing it for . So you're given some pretty specific guidelines and yet the freedom that you have is taking that content and working within the confines of the subject matter and the grade level and the style of the publisher and then creating the manuscript . Meanwhile , for the trade market , you literally are free to come up with any kind of idea that you would like to then pitch to an editor and hope that they're interested in it . So that's kind of the difference between the two . And , mike , I'll let you speak a little bit more about the working with the editors in the educational market and how that looks .
Speaker 4Right yeah , in the educational market , like Sandra said , it's very dictated the grade level you're writing for the reading level . The grade level you're writing for the reading level , I guess . So you have to be careful about sentence length . Of course you're only working with maybe a thousand words anyway , so there's not a lot . But what you do as an author to make it more exciting is you have things like the sidebars or the titles and those small things . You can just make them cute or fun or very engaging to your brain , I guess , in the way that you write them , so that you can still add excitement and interest , even within the structure of an educational publisher .
Speaker 5Right . So being , I think , very mindful about analogies that you include in your book so you can take an experience or an idea or concept that kids may not be overly familiar with and yet put it in their terms in a funny and engaging way , through a super good analogy , is one thing that I think speaks to our strength . I know Mike and I are always well . Did that analogy pull them out of the text or did it make them chuckle and keep them right in there ? Words that you use there are funny words that appeal to kids . I think Mike is really a pro at that . Pickle , yeah , pickle , pickle is a very funny word and you would choose pickle over . You know other words to get a little bit of a chuckle in kids , and that's a fact . Yeah , and it's knowing those kinds of triggers that really appeal to kids speaks to a strength I think that we try to bring to the educational books , despite having some pretty strict guidelines to work with .
Speaker 4Right , and editors work probably very similar for the trade and educational market . It's just that the educational market . When I'm going back and forth , I'm working within a structured environment , but the back and forth between the editor is pretty similar . They'll say , could you change these words ? Or , instead of using this topic , could you use another topic that they would prefer to see ? So the back and forth with the editors is pretty similar .
Speaker 3Just one question for clarification with the editors is pretty similar . Just one question for clarification . When you're , and I'm , more familiar with the middle and secondary level , so this is so I'm curious to see is a lot of your work tend to be independent , or is it within an anthology or within a text like a larger textbook kind of ?
Speaker 5Usually independent , unless you're working on what we tend to call teacher instructional material , where that could be a compilation of lesson plans that are in a huge curriculum program . So those teacher materials are very different from , let's say , the books that you might be writing for the educational market so yeah , let me clarify a little bit .
Speaker 4So the educational market itself really has a huge division within the market . One is teacher related materials , like sandra does , and I don't do any of those , but it's a huge market . You know , test passages , lesson plans , all kinds of things . The other side of the educational market is the photo-illustrated non-fiction , the fictional series . If you're writing those , I think the answer , the question you were trying to ask maybe was when I write a book , it's typically part of a series of four or six . So that editor offers me let's say she has six titles , and she'll give me the six titles and say , mike , you can take two of these or three of these , you know , take the ones you want . So I'll write half of a series and another author will write the other half .
Speaker 3Okay , yeah , that makes sense . I've done work with a lot of teacher materials but which ? So I was interested to see how the division . But I love the concept of writing , of using fiction writing and for students as well , so these would be two early reader books .
Speaker 5Okay , great , that are kind of the standalone and the teacher created materials . You usually don't even have anything that you can share on that , because lesson plans that could have a Pearson name on them or could have a Houghton Mifflin name on them . So yeah , you don't often get bragging rights when you do the teacher material .
Speaker 4The teacher no .
Speaker 3No , that's what I was telling , sandra , before you hopped on . I used to write for Pearson and I would write the passages and the stories and the test questions to go along with it . But yeah , there's not really a lot of bragging rights for that . It was fun . Though I enjoy working with standards , I don't mind . So do I .
Speaker 4What's a standard ?
Speaker 3I love a standard . It's like a blueprint .
Speaker 5Oh , she's speaking to my heart , I know .
Speaker 4I know Sandra my heart . I know I know Sandra and I are very complimentary in both ways .
Speaker 3Both spellings of the word .
Speaker 2Okay , so my understanding , I think , from what you're saying , is that the editor's producing the idea , so it's kind of like writing IP for the educational books that you guys do .
Speaker 4Yes , educational . They're very specific . They say this book is going to be on . Let's say I had a series of inventions that changed the world . They said we're going to be on . Let's say I had a series of inventions that changed the world . They said we're going to do airplanes , which I was a pilot , still am . I'm a pilot . So I got that book . Combustion Engine , another one . So those are the topics and within that topic that they gave me . So that's each book . Within that they gave a very structured format and said look , the first chapter is introduction , the second chapter has to talk about this . So all of the books in the series followed that same format , even though they were completely different topics , but that way it looked like a series . I went to that highlights retreat with Sandra and she actually recommended me to one of her editors , which got me started right away . I was very fortunate , very fortunate .
Speaker 2Okay , so you didn't have to be agented for that .
Speaker 5No , no , as a matter of fact , most ed writers don't have agents for numerous reasons . The contracts that you sign are basically non-negotiable . There's really not a lot of play in those , so you wouldn't need an agent to represent you . And likewise , the way that the ed market pays is with a flat fee , pays is with a flat fee , and that flat fee is not based on a royalty as the trade market is , and there's just usually not enough money to attract an agent .
Speaker 5Yet some of our writer friends who write for both the ed market and the trade do have an agent who gently agents them for the ed market too . And you know there's a lot of crossover now between trade and educational , and so sometimes you know you wonder if your ed book actually might turn into a trade . Or you know there's just a lot of change and fluctuation in the markets today . I think it's very exciting because I think that they're morphing . Both markets are kind of morphing in new directions and in terms of agents that could work to your advantage . It could really grow your career , your writing activities could blossom in different directions , but for the most part ed writers don't really need the services of an agent .
Speaker 2No , so how would someone who wanted to write in education ?
Speaker 5connect with an editor . What's the standard practice for that ? Well , that's exactly the topic of these courses that Mike and I teach , with highlights in SCBWI . But briefly in a nutshell , there is a submission package where you sell yourself and your skills and your interests and expertise and then that publisher looks at the line of books that they have coming off press that year and they try to get a nice fit . Like , as Mike mentioned , he's a pilot , so he ended up getting a number of projects that had to do with flight or space and while that fit is nice for an editor , because they basically know they will get someone who is skilled and the manuscript should be turned in in a timely manner according to the schedule Sometimes it doesn't always work and you end up with books that don't seem to be a good fit for you , but they are assigned to you anyway . That's always a chuckle for us .
Speaker 4Yeah , that's always a chuckle . But to get to a more basic level , I guess on answering the question , is that even before that , the way you find them , you would just look for educational publishers . You could do it online or through , like the SCBWI , the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators . You can go , look for those publishers , go to them online and you'll find submission guidelines and that tells you how to submit to that publisher . So typically a typical submission is where Sandra started . A typical submission would have you'd write them a query , quick introduction , a resume saying what you've done or what cool things you're good at , and then you'd have a writing sample . So they would use that to determine if they want to give you a project .
Speaker 2And , generally speaking , is there like a standard turnaround time for the projects or does it vary from editor to editor ?
Speaker 4I'm going to say three weeks a book .
Speaker 5Yeah , it's very speedy , it's super speedy , and that's another distinction between trade and educational Trade is fairly slow . It can be two to three years , whereby the ed market it's roughly three weeks , you know for the book type product . Now for the teacher type product , you can sign into some of the big projects that will last four months , six months yeah , so it's , but for the most part , the books , it's a three week turnaround and that includes oftentimes submitting an outline first and then actually writing and then oftentimes including art notes or any other tangential material that might be back matter or front matter . So you don't have time to dilly-dally at all .
Speaker 4By the time you get stressed out about it , it's over , it's over .
Speaker 2What topics or themes do you think are the most in demand in the educational market ?
Speaker 5Well , I think today we are still seeing a lot of this social and emotional learning . I think that that's a topic that still is very popular , as are any books that have to do with STEM science , technology , engineering and math , or STEAM , which is science , technology , engineering , art and math . Those are very popular still . I think anything that has to do with multiple language learning is very popular right now and , of course , in the teacher market , phonics and decodables . Teaching kids how to read , using the science of reading , is very , very popular . I would say that those are the real highlights , mike , do you have ? Did I leave anything out ?
Speaker 4I think the only one you missed was the novels in verse , or stories in verse . That has gotten to be very popular , and we don't talk about graphic novels because we don't do them , but they're also very popular .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah . And adding to that , I think , books that are called high lows , and what that means is they're high interest at a low readability
Writing for the Educational Market
Speaker 5level . High interest at a low readability level . So this would be at like the middle school level , and these books have content that's very different from the elementary level books . They're a little edgier not terribly edgy , but a little edgier and yet the level of reading could be at a second grade level . I once had a project where I was writing at a kindergarten level for middle school students because they were English language learners . So you know , those high lows is another area that I believe is expanding and going to continue to expand .
Speaker 3Yes , yeah , that's something that I was interested in and I was familiar . We actually were talking about that a few weeks ago . I think that that's a market , especially for that middle school , high school area and with COVID we saw the drops in reading levels . So I think that flushed out .
Speaker 4But they still want topics that interest them .
Speaker 3That's exactly it Motivating topics high interest , but within their reading level .
Speaker 4Yes , absolutely .
Speaker 5And I might just add to that that , while there are these topics that are very appealing right now , we always try to stress to the people who attend our class that they're not simple . Even those high lows are not simple to write . You really have to take a deep dive into publishers who produce those and take a look at what makes them work and how to reach that audience . It's not enough to say , oh , look , the writing is super simple and the topic appeals to middle schoolers . There's not enough to say , oh , look at , the writing is super simple and the topic appeals to middle schoolers .
Speaker 5There's , you know , there's so many other things the use of contractions , how long the sentences should be , idioms that you try to avoid . You know there's just a lot of elements that go into it . So Mike and I always suggest to participants that they thoroughly study the kind of book that they're interested in writing in the ed market so that they are not going into it blindly and just thinking that . You know , anybody who has writing skill can do this . You really need to tailor the kind of writing that you do or submit if you're looking for a particular kind of genre to write .
Speaker 2Right , I love that . Are there any websites or directories that you think would be especially useful for somebody who aspires to write in the educational market ? Sure do , yeah .
Speaker 4You know , I just have a new one coming up . I just have a children's book . Yeah , we'll have a new one coming up , yeah .
Speaker 5This is a book that Mike and I did write very conversational style . It is available on Amazon and it really is meant to take participants through . Anybody who has an interest in writing for the ed market they can follow this very easily . All the information they need is really in here and it's a great read . It's a quick read . It's a great read . It has samples in there of resumes , query letters , writing samples , so we've received very positive feedback from it and we're actually working on a new edition of it .
Speaker 4Just about done , but the one major change that I've noticed that we've talked about , sandra , is with trying to find the publishers . It's so hard to find places that keep up to date on those . Scbwi has a list . There's a couple other lists . I think that's what you are asking , jd , and so the way that I've found to be the most successful now is I will do an AI search and keep running that down to what I'm actually looking for in publishers , and I've had personally the best luck with that recently for getting up-to-date information on publishers that I'm interested in .
Speaker 3Love that .
Speaker 4Who knew yeah ?
Speaker 5And it is a changing market as well . So trying to keep current and up to date is a task in and of itself . There are also publishers , international publishers you know out of Canada and elsewhere that in Europe that also you know . It's a market that Mike and I are investigating and exploring a bit more , so it does take a little bit of searching to find them and to make sure that they're up-to-date listings , but they're definitely out there and I think that while some may disappear and fall away , other new ones come up . So it's a very interesting market to be exploring and participating in .
Speaker 4Yes , but there's no specific place . You can go all the time and find a good list we yeah ? Maybe the answer is just no , there's not yeah yeah , Better answer not yeah yeah . Better answer no .
Speaker 2Yeah , what can people learn from coming to your workshops ?
Speaker 5oh , they can learn how to enter the market , how to get their foot in the door , what they need , how to prepare their materials , how to approach publishers with their materials and hopefully land some job assignments .
Speaker 4Yeah , I mean it's very exciting in that we really take this whole process and make it accessible to each person , because we put it in a very simple format that , look , this is what you need . You need A , B and C and here's how each one of those looks . And then we give our students examples . We don't just talk about it . We say , look , here's an example , this one worked . Here's an example that we're changing now because the market is changing and we can't do that word count anymore . So what we do is we keep them up to date and we give them a very simple process for getting into the market .
Speaker 5And if I might just add to that , I think what speaks to our strength is that we do try to present current information to people . And I think , you know , oftentimes what happens with ed market writers is that they work for three publishers , five publishers , and then they stay there for year upon year upon year upon year , so they don't have the insights of breaking in fresh with a new publisher . And Mike and I , you know , actually force ourselves to submit to new publishers so that we can see what that experience is like and learn from it , so that we can share the most current , cutting edge information with our students . And I think that's really distinguishes us from , you know , maybe some other end market writers who have been in it for as long as Mike and I have been in it . Right , we always are putting ourselves in , you know , in the shoes of a new writer and we're happy to give our mistakes , especially me , and we're happy to give our mistakes , especially me , because I make way more than Sandra .
Speaker 4Yeah , we do . We do make mistakes , yeah , and Mike shares them . I don't know what it is , I guess he's just more open and sharing .
Speaker 5I'm so proud of them . But yeah , I make mistakes , but I tend to speak very little of them .
Speaker 2How do you approach marketing your books to educators in schools ?
Speaker 5We don't do any marketing with the educational books . That's all done by the publishing companies . So once you turn in your writing , you walk away and get ready for your next job assignment .
Speaker 4It's even more interesting than that . They've really sold the book long before you write it . So it's the marketers at the ed companies have already sold these in advance . And then they have all these projects that they assign to writers .
Speaker 2And how many of the projects you both take on every year and how many of the projects you book take on every year .
Speaker 5Well , for me I usually take no more than two to three of these large teacher material projects because again those can span three to four to six months . So I'll take some of those and then , with book assignments , anywhere from maybe two like two to three , because it's all still part-time work . That's the way that I consider it . I'm still working as a teacher , so I try to limit to what I think is still manageable . And then Mike and I both are also working in trade publishing and I work with standards-based testing . So I would say two to three of the big projects and then maybe two to three books and then a lot of other smaller passage writing things , one-offs , things of that sort .
Speaker 4Yeah , Sandra's much busier than me there because she does all this teacher stuff . I will strictly take a couple because I only work on book projects . So you know sometimes they're very hard to get . Sometimes I keep getting emails saying write this and I turn them down . But two a year is where I'm staying because I put most of my . A lot of my focus now is on the trade market , so we're writing for two different places . So I have an agent for one that I'm writing for and then the trade , the educational market . We just enjoy it and and like the fast pace . So we just make sure that we're in it and you know , keep seeing what's going on . So we just picked up another project that we finished recently Oops , excuse me , I got an alarm there that we finished with poetry prompts that will be coming out this year .
Speaker 5Who's your agent ? About two a year , sorry , yeah , who's ?
Speaker 2your agent .
Speaker 4Oh Me . Is Mary Cummings up in Minnesota ? Is that , let me think ? Is that right ? Is that where the Mississippi starts ? I think it is St Paul .
Speaker 5That's where she's at , yeah the teacher materials is that , you know . Another reason that those are so appealing is that you know that that work is going into classrooms , much like even the book materials . And I think if you have a feel for what kids are doing in schools and how they're learning , and the way that the material that you're creating could , you know , spark their interest , it could , you know , set them on a career path , it could actually help them learn to read . These are all very honorable and I know Mike never mentions that and yet for me , with my teacher background , that's very important to me . That keeps me in the game and it also is one of the reasons why I'll take on new projects , because I think , oh , wow , this is a very interesting teacher program , instructional program that kids will really benefit from . That . I have not seen out there yet Like a lot of multimedia packages are being created now , in science for example , and those are just wild and you know they're going to do so much good in school .
Speaker 5Those are just wild and you know they're going to do so much good in school . So so , yes , it's a nice career . It keeps , you know , it's an interesting career , it's fast moving , but it also seems very purposeful .
Speaker 4So I , that's true . My excitement is knowing I can write something that a kid will actually like and that he'll want to read , or she will want to read , rather than be forced to read .
Speaker 2I'm curious . You said that it's modest pay , Like what would you say would be like on the low end and on the high end for the educational market .
Speaker 4Sandra , did you say modest ? That's a little high .
Speaker 5Well , mike , I'll let you start , because you have sort of the one set with the books . It's a little bit more cut and dry than with the other kinds of materials .
Speaker 4Right , so the educational market also has . What else do you call the jobbers there , sandra ?
Speaker 5The content creation houses .
Speaker 4Or packagers right , so they have content creation . House or packagers Right , so they have content creation . They have packagers or jobbers , however you want to call them , for the book industry . They , of course , will get a lot of projects and do them for major publishers . If you go with a jobber , the pay is extremely low and that is would be a typical job for someone to start with . So that would be about $450 for a thousand words , essentially a thousand words , you know , plus some sidebars and a glossary . So there's a lot of work and $450 for a jobber is just about right . The best pay I've gotten has been for poetry or fiction for Heinemann , which is a higher paying publisher , and that was where I was doing 500 words and got $2,200 a book , 500 to 800 words . So that's kind of the range , sandra . Is there any other range in the book market ?
Speaker 5I don't think so . You know they are pretty standard and I think , Mike , I remember reading that it averages out to what About a dollar ? A word , for the most part that for the most part , that's probably about right about a dollar per word , um , but that many can be on the lower end of that . If you work through a jobber , yes , but I think for the book market that's that's kind of a good rule of thumb there .
Speaker 4I agree .
Speaker 5But then of course , if your editor wants something that's done super speedy or they come back and they say , oh my gosh , let's add this to it . You know there's always smaller , smaller possibilities there , but generally a dollar per word . And then in the teacher side of things like passage writing for example , the range can be wild . For example , I had a 350 word folktale that I was paid $800 for a 1,200-word passage and get paid $200 to $300 for it . So there seems to be a lot of wild changes with passage writing , depending on who it's being assigned from and it's not necessarily jobbers , it's publishers too and then test writing materials whether it's questions no-transcript I'm talking you are already up to speed . There's no longer a learning curve . You're in somebody's database and you are rocking . So about $25 to $50 per lesson plan that you do , and that includes going back and making slight revisions . It includes addressing any concerns with putting maybe some artwork in there from a database that you've been provided . So that's the whole thing .
Speaker 2What's the most important lesson that you've learned as an author in the educational market ? Most important lesson that you've learned as an author in the ?
Speaker 4educational market . I don't mind , follow the guidelines , you know . Say write an outline . Yeah , so write the outline . And yeah , that's probably my most important lesson for me as a writer that I had to learn .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah , I'm very tempted to agree . My initial thought was think like a kid when you're
Navigating the Educational Publishing Market
Speaker 5writing and stay within your lane there and the lane of where those kids are . But in the long run I would agree with Mike . It's give people what they want , period . Give them what they want and you'll be fine .
Speaker 4Yes , it always makes more work when you're like , oh , I could write this a little different than they ask . It doesn't work and of course I couldn't stop trying it , so but I still guarantee it doesn't work .
Speaker 5And of course I couldn't stop trying it , but I still guarantee it doesn't work Doesn't work .
Speaker 2It does not work . Yeah , what advice would you give somebody just starting this journey ?
Speaker 5Well , I couldn't help but be really positive . I'd say pat on the back for a willingness to enter a wild ride . It's a fun market and I think people oftentimes are a little hesitant because there's so much upfront work . But it's a great way to hone your skills , it's a great way to get your foot in the door into publishing and it's a great way to even branch out . Many people do work with the educational market before they end up going into trade , so there's a lot of benefits and kudos to them for giving it a try . That would be what I would say to people .
Speaker 4Yeah , and really I would say , join the SCBWI . If you're writing for kids in the educational market , join the SCBWI . And really we like to think we have the best book on an easy intro to even see if you're interested . Hey , is this what I'm looking for ? Or does this sound like too much work Because you will have to put in the work ?
Speaker 3So for your trade books , are you writing for the same audience that you're writing for the educational market ?
Speaker 4Yes , for me absolutely yeah .
Speaker 5Yeah , it does tend to be for that particular market . Yeah , it's the one that Mike and I both realized that was kind of our comfort zone , and I'm a former fourth grade teacher , so you know fourth grade was kind of , you know , an area that I was very comfortable in . You know third and fifth are also in there as well . It's kind of what I know . So I try to stay in my lane where I can .
Speaker 4Yeah , third , fourth grade , that's the sweet spot .
Speaker 2Is there one that you prefer to the other ? Do you prefer educational ? Do you prefer trade ? Is one easier or harder ?
Speaker 5There are positives and negatives to both . I like the speed of the educational market . I like that it's going into kids to be used for instructional purposes . Speed of the educational market I like that it's going into kids to be used for instructional purposes . But I of course like the trade where you have the freedom to write what you want to write about and the royalty structure pays you back in ways that honor your time as a writer , I think in almost a better way . But they both have positives and negatives .
Speaker 4Mike , I'll turn it over to you , no no , that's the trade market gives you the value of being able to write whatever you want , from whatever angle . But , like Sandra said , the speed in the educational market is fun because I get a , I get a proposal and three weeks later I have a book done so how do you define success as an author ?
Speaker 4when I see a kid who likes my book , really for me it me it's being , it's believing that I can help them , and I'm very much a STEM writer , so I like to write a book that's super fun to read , but it's teaching a STEM topic . So that's the rewarding part for me to write a fun book , but I tricked them into learning along the way . How about you , sandra ?
Speaker 5Yeah , I would have to agree . I think success is defined as you know doing something that you feel contributes in a way that's of value , you know there's value to it and I think that reaching kids and I like the curriculum , I do like the standards as well so turning those into something that's fun for kids or they learn from it instead of dread it I agree that that is a real contribution and I do think that there's so many ways you can affect kids with a successful book Again , just setting them on a career path , sparking an interest that they're going to follow up on and even learning to read , and I think that's a great contribution .
Speaker 2Awesome . Is there any final advice you want to offer to people who are looking to go into the educational market ?
Speaker 5My advice would be to really take a look at books that are from the educational market . My advice would be to really take a look at books that are from the educational market , find those publishers , look at the books , look at their catalogs and really note what those look like . That would be my advice , so they kind of have a feel for what is produced in this market .
Speaker 4Great , advice , sandra . Well , thank you , that's a good one .
Speaker 2None from you , Mike .
Speaker 4No , no , I'm just going to go with that . I think that's probably the best advice you could get . Look at the books that are out there to see what is actually being made , and if that's what you're interested in writing , then get on the path .
Speaker 2Love that , Jamie . Did you have ?
Speaker 3any more questions ? I don't . I just want to say thank you . This was so informative and um and helpful , and you both were a pleasure to meet .
Speaker 5Oh great , I look forward to your your workshop too , yes we look forward to seeing you there and thank you so much for the interview . I love the articles , jd , that you have written about the banned books , and we need more diverse books . One of our colleagues actually works with that committee as well , dorothy H Price , who does one of the workshops with us at Highlight . She has entered the ed market and the trade market and she's very big in the diverse book area too , so it was nice to see that . Yeah , so thank you .
Speaker 2Thank you . Thank you , jj , thank you .
Speaker 5How can people connect with you ? They can connect on my website at sandraathens at gmailcom .
Speaker 4And it's .
Speaker 1A-T-H-A-N-S .
Speaker 5Or through any of the listings . I know that Highlights has our courses listed , scbwi has our courses listed as well , so we are listed as the presenters or authors and there's always ways to connect through that as well .
Speaker 4And Instagram , Facebook . I'm not an immediate replier , but within a couple of days .
Speaker 5Yeah , social media .
Speaker 2Yes , awesome . Thank you guys so much for your time I appreciate it .
Speaker 6That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Moyer . Thanks for joining us . If you liked the episode , please comment , subscribe and share . For show notes , writing workshops and tips , head to jdmayorcom . That's jdmayorcom . While you're there , join JD's mailing list for updates , giveaways and more .