Season 3 Episode 4: Exposing Book Bans & Publishing’s Dark Side with NYT Bestselling Author Samira Ahmed

New York Times bestselling author Samira Ahmed joins us for an eye-opening episode that challenges the status quo of the publishing world. As a Muslim author writing about critical themes such as Islamophobia, Samira offers a unique perspective on the hurdles faced by marginalized writers. She discusses her unorthodox journey from education and activism to literature, shedding light on the systemic barriers within the industry and advocating for bookshelves that truly reflect our diverse society.

We turn our focus to the contentious issue of book banning, discussing its detrimental impact on intellectual freedom. In a world where preemptive censorship is alarmingly common, Samira and I draw parallels to historical regimes that have used book bans as tools of oppression. We emphasize the vital role of community efforts in resisting these acts, inspired by Toni Morrison's rallying cry for authors to wield their stories as weapons of defiance against bigotry and authoritarianism.

Finally, we explore actionable ways to support diverse voices and combat censorship on a local level. From attending school board meetings to engaging with initiatives like We Need Diverse Books, we discuss how community activism can make a tangible difference. Samira and I urge listeners to champion marginalized authors and advocate for curricula that embrace diversity. By staying informed and involved, we can ensure literature remains a powerful force for truth and inclusivity.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.

J.D. Myall 0:38

In season three, episode four of Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you New York Times best selling author, Shamira Ahmed. Shamira has written titles like Internment this Book Won't Burn and Hollow Fires. Today, Shamira is going to talk about book banning, how the US presidential election will impact authors and novelists, and she talks a little bit about publishing and writing craft. So it's a great conversation. I hope you stay around and check it out. Let's get chatty. Season three, episode four of Craft Chat Chronicles. All right, Tell me about your publishing journey and how you got started in the industry.

Samira Ahmed 1:22

So I actually my first novel was published in 2018, but I had other careers prior to that.

Samira Ahmed 1:30

Um, because, as they like to tell high school students whenever I go to speak to them, I didn't always want to be a writer. When I grew up, that wasn't one of my dreams, but your dreams can change and so, um, I, you know, had this idea for a story and I thought maybe it would be a book, and that eventually became my first book Love, hate and Other Filters. But prior to that, I was a high school English teacher and I worked in education nonprofits in New York City, one that sued George Pataki, the then governor of New York, for inadequately funding the public schools. I was the deputy director of that organization called the Campaign for Fiscal Equity. I was the director of external affairs at an organization called New Visions for Public Schools, which helped create new small public high schools throughout New York City, and all along the way, I sort of would write for fun, you know. And then I have this idea that I thought was going to be something, and that eventually became my first novel of Hating Under Filters.

J.D. Myall 2:32

Awesome. What do you think you did right that helped you break into the industry?

Samira Ahmed 2:39

You know, no one has ever asked me that question before.

J.D. Myall 2:42

I've been asked a lot of questions about that.

Samira Ahmed 2:43

So I think one is I said yes to myself, which I think is something that's really important Because, like I said, I mean I was basically like 40 before I was like I think maybe I'm going to try writing a book, and so some people might, you know, look, of course you can fail anytime there's a new endeavor, but to me it was just like worth it to try, because to me it's a bigger risk to not try than it is to fail, and I think that's just important for people of all ages to remember, because the fact of the matter is you can write a great book and maybe it's never going to get published because there's a lot of people who want to write or who haven't quite, you know, broken through the traditional publishing barrier. I think for me it was a few things. I mean, I think persistence is really, really important. I think tenacity, I think having a thick skin which, being a former teacher, was really helpful in that regard.

Samira Ahmed 3:52

I mean, I taught high school, so I think that was important and also learning, you know, learning to edit myself and also not to take rejection. Personally, I think all of those things were really important, just on sort of that's not the craft side, that's really like the professional side. I think all of those things were really important, just on sort of that's not the craft side, that's really like the professional side, I guess. So I think those were all things that helped. And also, you know, I tried very hard to write a good book and I think Love, hate and Other Filters at the time it came out or the time it was sold, because we sold it in 2016.

Samira Ahmed 4:24

You know, it was one of the first novels, one of the first contemporary novels about a Muslim, a young Muslim South Asian character that was dealing with issues of Islamophobia. And when it hit the New York Times bestseller list, I was only the, I think at the time, on the YA list. I was only the third Muslim to have ever hit on that YA list. I was only the third Muslim to have ever hit on that YA list and also the first Muslim writing contemporary novel. So, uh, it was cool and I think the time was right for it. So it's always, you know, it's a little bit like perfect storm kind of thing and I had a lot of, you know, I had a lot of great support in the industry, which is I was, I felt, lucky to have that, but also, at the same time, publishing is a pretty racist industry. So I was also sort of like, well, it's about time, like we need to spend more.

Samira Ahmed 5:19

You know, we Need Diverse Books is now having its 10 year anniversary. Diverse Books is now having its 10-year anniversary and we have seen some changes in organizations like we Need Diverse Books and individual authors working so hard to try to diversify our shelves, because I always say our shelves should reflect our world, but we're still not there yet. I mean, publishing is still so white and the majority of stories that are being published are still about white kids and a lot of the things that are especially hitting the list lately are skewing away from diversity in a lot of ways. That speaks to actually book bans and what part of some of the larger discussions we need to be having in publishing, because, um, you know, book bans have been really rampant for a few years now. I mean, there's literally tens of thousands of books that have been banned and the vast majority are by queer, trans or, you know, black around authorsOC authors and that obviously affects both author sales in a negative way and it also, I think, even if publishers don't necessarily want to say it, it does impact how you know money is being spent and what books are getting pushed forward, and you know there's so many publishers or corporations and their bottom line is money. And so, even though there's a lot of fantastic people like I love my editorial team at Little Brown, I love my whole team there really but they're individuals, not a giant corporation, though I have to say I have been happy that both my publisher and other traditional publishers have been trying to push back on book bans, especially through some litigation that's coming up, and Penguin Random House actually hired an in-house lobbyist to push back against book bans. So I think all of that is great, but I would love to see publishers do more, especially as we're entering this second Trump era, where Project 2025, their policy handbook, their foundation that they want to build on for the next four years, literally on who publish, write, disseminate, share, quote, unquote pornographic materials, and what have we seen that to mean?

Samira Ahmed 8:16

Pornography can mean literally anything that has queer characters in it, trans characters in it, any books that reference sex. There's even sometimes, you know, one of my books that was banned, my third novel, mad Bad and Dangerous to Know, and one of the districts that it was banned. It was banned for for, quote, sexual content. There's not even sex in the book. There's zero sex in the book. There is some kissing in the book, um, and it it's actually I mean, it's truly unbelievable to me. So we know that when they're using terms like this, they're really just, you know, kind of a catch-all for them to just push everyone into this this.

Samira Ahmed 9:10

You know, under this label, that they want to ban books that are obscene or pornographic or damaging to kids, any books that reference CRT critical race theory which we? Critical race theory is legal framework. It's not being taught in any public school. Uh and um. And yet we have seen so many examples, um, over the last three years where where books that deal with issues of racism you know bigotry, um, in my case, islamophobia, um Racism, you know bigotry, in my case, islamophobia are being deemed problematic because it can make white kids feel bad.

Samira Ahmed 9:56

We, just about a month ago, a teacher in Texas was fired for teaching the graphic novel version of the Diary of Anne Frank. A uh, another district recently um changed. Uh, they took this picture book that was written by a native and native author and it was about colonialism in America. It's a nonfiction book and they filed it under fiction. That's the kind of censorship too, because they're taking our history and they're saying that it's fiction. I mean, that's, the history of the United States is rooted in the genocide of Native Americans, is rooted in chattel slavery and they want to erase all of that. And it is so deeply dangerous. And we've seen this especially in Florida and Texas, where the governors are very pro book bans, and what I'm worried about is how that is going to proliferate under the next administration.

Samira Ahmed 10:58

And we've been fighting this as much as we can on the, you know, district to district, local levels. And it is important for people to continue that fight with their school boards, with their library boards. Those are all elected officials, those are all politicians. And those are the elections where we see really terrible voter turnout and so often school board members or library board members can literally just be elected by a handful of votes. And that's what we've seen happen in so many districts where there's board turnover and we have pro-book banners, pro censorship, folks getting elected to school board positions.

Samira Ahmed 11:46

I mean, I spoke at a school board in Michigan that was wanting to pull over 200 books from the shelves, including two of my books in tournament and hall of fires, and there had recently been board turnover and one of the board members had actually gotten, like campaign funds from you know, support from groups such as Moms for Liberty, and they were trying to pull these 200 books. And I spoke to the school board and what was astonishing to me is I'm standing in front of the school board and I'm telling them and I was invited in. Librarians and some teachers invited me to speak about my books being banned and not a single one of these school board members would meet my eye when I spoke for my three minutes Not a single one. And what's even more telling is there was a high school student who spoke there, a young woman, and I love that so much because my novel, this Book Won't Burn, my most recent novel, is about kids fighting censorship in book bands.

The Impact of Book Banning

Samira Ahmed 12:51

So this was a real-life example of a teenager, a high school kid, standing in front of all these adults in a packed room and speaking so eloquently about how book bans are wrong, how censorship is wrong, how it in fact hurts kids, how she, as a teenager, knows it's wrong, and how come this whole board doesn't know it's wrong? And they didn't look her in the eye either. And I was thinking this is a kid in your district that you are supposed to be representing, you're supposed to be building a better school district for her and you're denying her this basic right to read. And she's sitting here standing in front of you, chastising you for it A kid speaking the truth. And none of these adults could look her in the eye because they know she was right, and none of these adults could look her in the eye because they know she was right.

Samira Ahmed 14:51

How does it feel emotionally to realize that something you worked so hard on has been baked? Honestly, I am angry about it.

Samira Ahmed 14:56

And I know, I mean I think everyone has a right to whatever feelings they want about their own books being banned or book bans in general. But for me it's not just about some of my books being challenged because truthfully, I'm not the most challenged author in America. I mean, some of my books have been challenged, Some of them have been. I know a lot of librarians and teachers have told me stories of like soft banning, where my books have been quietly removed without going through the process. It's librarians or teachers or other district members who are preemptively banning, preemptively censoring, which is so, so wrong because you're essentially doing the job of fascists for them. But it makes me angry because to me, reading is a fundamental right, it's a fundamental human right. I mean, yes, it should be an American right, the freedom of thought, the freedom of speech but it really is a right for every human being on earth, the right to choose what we want to read, to choose what we want to think. And when you know it's impinging on our freedom of thought, it's impinging on our freedom period of thought, it's impinging on our freedom period and you know I wrote about this in this Book Won't Burn when we talk about why we have seen historically, like you can go back to 1933 in Germany, where Hitler was ushered in and then shortly thereafter, there was massive book burnings across the country.

Samira Ahmed 16:24

Regimes want to ban books and censor books when they want to keep a population ignorant, Because an ignorant people are easier to control, and it's really that simple. People who are banning books in America want America shaped into their very myopic, racist, homophobic, transphobic worldview. And all of us because we know the majority of Americans are against censorship All of us need to be speaking out a lot louder than we already are. We need to be showing up locally, at our school board meetings and at our library board meetings and, yeah, we need to show our anger at this and our disgust at this. It's like so grossly anti-American to censor and ban books and everyone should know that. It's a violation of our First Amendment rights. It's a violation of what we always are taught. America was built on freedom and liberty, but we know that book banners and, with this new administration coming in, people who are pro-censorship are enemies of liberty.

J.D. Myall 17:41

Very true, very true yeah so you can tell I'm hyped about it as censorship and book banning affected you as a writer, has it changed the way you write at all?

Samira Ahmed 17:57

it hasn't changed.

Samira Ahmed 18:01

It hasn't changed what I want to write. I mean, I've always, since my very first novel, the through line of all my novels is the story of the revolutionary girl, and that revolutionary girl is more important now than ever. And you know, we saw a revolutionary woman trying running for president and I think, now more than ever we still need those stories. And so I think that sometimes, you know, you asked emotionally how it was, and I think book bans and censorship and just this new era of fascism that we're entering, it doesn't change what I want to write. But I'm not going to lie, sometimes it does make writing harder because there's a, you know, there's kind of a weight on you, and I think black and brown authors have felt this always, I think. And the same thing, I'm sure, exists for other groups that are from marginalized you know, other marginalized groups who are writing from there, cause we often, you know, have to bear the burden of representing our entire community, even though that's ridiculous, because you know, yes, I'm Indian, american, I'm Muslim, I'm an immigrant, but my characters in my books, they can't represent every single Indian that exists, every single immigrant that exists, every single Muslim that exists. It's just a story about one character in our communities, because it's been so hard historically to find books that reflect, you know, the us. You want that character to be everything, you want that character to be perfect. And then you have the flip side of people who aren't from your community, who want to put stereotypes onto your characters, like, hey, how come your character doesn't do this? Or why don't they do that? Or, you know, wouldn't they speak in this way? Or isn't an Indian family more conservative because of X, y or Z? And I'm like you're putting your, like we're writing with, and you know we do want to obviously lift up our communities and our voices and our stories, but at the same time, with the added burden of book bans and censorship, and with that comes, you know, threats of violence, and so many of us have faced those, I mean, and so with all that, of course it makes it just sort of in some ways more difficult to write, but I guess for me, I try to. I try to overcome that by remembering that. You know it's I think of that Connie Morrison quote all the time like the sort of the object of racism is to essentially the racist and and the book banners, and like the Islamophobes would love for me to stop writing. They would love for me to stop telling my stories and stop doing my work, and I just remember Tony Morrison talking about how we can't let that happen. We have to tell our stories and we can't let the the you know, the racists and the bigots and the homophobes succeed, because when we stop, they win, and I won't.

Samira Ahmed 21:44

Art, you know, art is really important and that's why artists in so many regimes throughout history, have been punished by authoritarians. You know. That's why we're banned and censored, that's why we've been jailed, that's why artists're banned and censored, that's why we've been jailed. That's why artists and writers and journalists and painters and musicians have come under so much pressure from authoritarian regimes, have been ostracized, have been driven out of their homes, have been killed. Because, you know, the job of the artist, in so many ways, is to speak the truth and for me, I often say that I write the world as it is, to imagine the world that could be. I love that.

J.D. Myall 22:40

How did you process the election and the fact that we were like on the cusp of history and then had it snatched away?

Samira Ahmed 22:49

A truly incredibly, hyper-competent, incredibly like just skilled, smart black woman who people who should have been such an obvious choice, fall to a convict, a criminal? Yeah, because in America we somehow still cannot. There's so many people who cannot fathom, you know, voting for a black woman and I just really think a lot of it came down to that and it fills me with rage because I see so many people who voted against their best interests. When I see people, when I see immigrants who voted for a guy who hates immigrants who's a xenophobe, who wants to kick people out, like both undocumented and documented.

Fighting Book Bans and Supporting Authors

Samira Ahmed 23:58

Even when I see women voting for someone who's really saying, I want control over your body, that's enraging to me and, honestly, like every man too, I mean, like I guess maybe I have lower standards for so many white men in terms of voting, but it's enraging to me because I guess white supremacy is just such a drug that it overcomes common sense and decency and even democracy. Like this is a failure of democracy. People voting in a strong man and it has it's true that in elections across the world, we've been seeing strong man come into power, but it is, it was a failure on many, many levels. However, there were still tens of millions of us who voted to try to save democracy, and there were tens of millions of us who said, yeah, we're going to vote for the smart one. Who said we're going to vote for a big tent that everyone can fit in, and so I do.

Samira Ahmed 25:14

I get hope from that. So I think my processing has been. I mean, yes, there was some sadness, but it was mostly just anger, because I'm a I mean honestly, I'm a person that's very motivated by rage, like I believe that my anger is a gift that I can use and channel into my work, um, but sometimes I'm like vibrating from it, so I got to bring myself down from that a little bit. But it's also that also mingles with hope, because I think I'm hopeful still and it seems so hard to keep on to any hope. But when I think of all the young people that I write for, when I think of just all the kids I see in my neighborhood going to school, when I see all the people who voted for democracy and who voted for a world to be inclusive, that does give me some hope. And to me, hope requires action. And so that's where I am right now. I'm like, okay, I'm ready to get to work.

J.D. Myall 26:26

For those who aren't like informed on what the next step should be how can they fight back against censorship?

Samira Ahmed 26:29

Where can they begin? Okay, so there's a lot of things that people can do, because I know that not everyone is like hey, I'm going to be leading a march and speaking in front of 200,000 people.

Samira Ahmed 26:38

But what I want people to do is on their very local level, like this is at their local school, this is at their local library. I want them to just do a little research. I want them to go to a school board meeting. I want them to go to a library board meeting, or even go to their public library and talk to their librarians and ask them where are we right now? What's going on on the censorship front? I want them to call their school board members and you know what?

Samira Ahmed 27:07

Remember school board members. Yes, they hold a position of some power because you voted them onto the school board, but they answer to you, the public. Every politician that we elect answers to us. Every politician that we elect answers to us whether you voted for them or not. And I want people locally to call their school board members and ask them hey, where do you stand on this issue? Do you think books should be banned? Do you think we should censor what kids can read or what we as adults can read? Because I think it's really important to call people out on it and make people say where they stand. And these school board members are just your neighbors. Find out what they're doing. So that's just on a very, very local level, and I do think this is going to be fought on the local level. Find your community.

Samira Ahmed 27:55

So sometimes it's not that easy to go to a school board meeting, find two or three or four like-minded friends, community members, and show up at that school board meeting or show up at the offices of the superintendent and ask them these questions, or go to the library together. Like working in community is so, so important, and so I'm really been urging people to find their community locally, and so I've really been urging people to find their community locally and in so many of our districts across the country, three or four or five people just working together can be an incredible force. So I want people to recognize their own power and find small ways that they can start using it. And that includes voting at your local school board, that includes voting in your local library board. That means asking questions of your school board, of your librarians, of your superintendent, of your principal, about where they stand on this. I mean, it's just having conversations with teachers or, again, librarians, like about what's going on, like getting a pulse for the community, or, you know, feeling the pulse of the community on where things stand with book bans and censorship.

Samira Ahmed 29:04

And then, if people are ready to do more, there is a lot of great work already being done. You don't have to, you know, you don't have to create all the organizations yourself, but you could check out what we Need Diverse Books is doing. You could go to the American Library Association website. There is a whole freedom to read project that people can get information about. So, you know, I always think that activism sometimes starts. It starts locally and with small steps, so figuring out what that first small step is for you and then get educated about it. Project 2025 is 900 pages long, but you just need to read just get to page five, really, and you can.

Samira Ahmed 29:47

If you're interested in learning more about what they want to ban and what they want to censor. It's literally right there in black and white Authors Against Book Bans. We have an Instagram page and if people want to learn more about book bans, they can go to our website, authors Against Book Bans, or even to our Instagram page, and you'll see graphics up there that show you know what's happening, both nationally, locally, and we even have politician cards on there for local, you know people running for school boards. We even have politician cards on there for local people running for school boards, where we don't endorse candidates but we send out questionnaires and we rate them. Like green, red, yellow, like green. This candidate is against book bans and censorship and you can check out to see if your local school board member is on your local school board members on on those, those lists. So, um, those exist. I just think we need to.

J.D. Myall 30:49

Um, you know, just give yourself a little nudge and take that first step. Love that, love that. Beyond fighting bans, what can readers do to support um marginalized authors in diverse stories?

Samira Ahmed 30:59

So, um, again, number one if you are a parent, I want you to check out what your kid is reading and what is on their curriculum, and I want you to strongly encourage your kid's English teachers to diversify their curriculum and also to diversify the library shelves. You, as a taxpayer, have a right to ask for that. I want readers to understand something and this is really, really important because a lot of times people will say this to me like, oh, your book was banned or challenged, congratulations. Now sales are going to skyrocket. No, that doesn't happen. It happens for a very it does happen for a few books, you know, because the top 10 books that are getting banned in America might be on like a Barnes and Noble table or like at your indie bookstore, might be during banned books week, might be on a table. So it's front and center. But there's been over 10,000 books that have been challenged and most of those authors are actually being hurt by these challenges. So what I'm asking people?

Samira Ahmed 32:04

to also do is if you have the ability to literally buy books by marginalized authors at your indie bookstore, that's a great way to do it. I think also, supporting indie bookstores is really, really important, especially if you can support minority owned bookstores, like in my. I live in Chicago and there are four women black owned books, four black women owned bookstores, and so that's when I'm buying books, that's where my money's gonna go. I'm gonna go to Call and Response Chicago or Semi Call in Chicago, or if I wanna support my feminist bookstore, women and Children First, I'm going to be buying my books from those places. Also, if you can't buy books, I totally get it because, like, sometimes budgets are tight, requesting books at your library is really important. So if you see a book by a Black or Brown or Indigenous or queer or trans author and you're like, hey, this isn't at my library Remember those three or four or five friends that I said that you're going to find in a community All of you go to your librarian and request that book to be bought and brought into the collection. That's something that's really small that you can do. Another thing that you can do is if you get your library books online. I use the Libby app, which is a library app and it's free, which is amazing. You can check books out and read them that way. You can also request books through the Libby app that maybe aren't at your library. So there's a lot of very easy ways that you can do that. And also when for marginalized authors, we are getting many fewer school visits, and for authors who write kid lit, who work in children's literature. Often that makes up a large percentage of our income because we don't get a regular salary and publishers pay us twice a year and it's, you know, royalty based um, and I think people don't always realize how, how the majority of authors um, you know, the average author salary in america, I think, is less than 25 000 a year, um, and we're getting hurt by not being able to get to have school visits or library visits. And so supporting marginalized authors by buying our books and where we have events going to them, like if we have an event in the city at an indie bookstore, please come, even if you can't afford to buy a book. You're not required to buy a book, though it's awesome. If you can, please just come and show up to those events. I think it's really important because that's also a place where you can find your community. I think indie bookstores are an awesome place to find community. Um, because you're with other readers and I would.

The Power of Diverse Stories

Samira Ahmed 34:56

I want to see readers you know know their power like, especially in YA lit. You know we've got a lot of stories about the dystopia and people rising up against oppression, and you know a lot of people. I saw this meme going around about how people were saying like gosh, now I know how Katniss Everdeen felt when they she had to get called back to the Hunger Games when they did the second one. Be inspired by some of the stories that you read. You don't have to be in the Hunger Games, but you can certainly use your voice and what power you have and maybe that's the power of the wallet, that's the power of the wallet, it's the power of your vote and the power of your voice to ensure that we will continue to have the right to read and the right to write freely. I think that's so important.

J.D. Myall 35:55

Very true, very true. What has been your experience in the publishing industry as an author from a marginalized background? Have you noticed any shifts?

Samira Ahmed 36:09

recently, or from when you started to now.

J.D. Myall 36:22

Well, I mean, I do think it's interesting to say that all of our publishers also publish books by people who want to ban books. I mean, for example, like in 2020, when they started all of the performative, perhaps push for marginalized creators, and there were so many like agents and everybody saying we want this, we want this, we want this and we were on the bestsellers list. I thought we were moving in the right direction and now it feels like the pendulum swinging back.

Samira Ahmed 36:49

Oh, yeah, for sure. I think when we are having like sort of our in-house discussions amongst you know, like in our chat groups and stuff, or our group chats, rather a lot of marginalized authors are feeling that like we're feeling like, okay, this is, you know, this is the diversity backlash. And I think you see that happening that happened in this election too which was like the oh, they're, uh, you know, they're a diversity hire or she's a this and like we've definitely seen rumblings of that, with people saying, you know, authors are like the diversity, the diverse authors that are out there or authors in diverse backgrounds are diversity hires, I mean. And that couldn't be farther from the truth, because every author from a marshallings background knows that we have to work two times or three times as hard to to even get our foot through the door. And I think publishers look, like I said before, they're corporations. Do I hold out a lot of hope that corporations will do the right thing? Probably not that much, I mean, but I do think that we as authors who are published can push our publishers to do the right thing.

Samira Ahmed 38:07

Look, you saw just recently Hachette, which is my publisher, like two or three days ago they announced a new conservative imprint. Days ago, they announced a new conservative imprint. I mean this is you can look at this on the pw the publisher's weekly um story um, a new conservative imprint. That um is run by uh. The. The editor is going to be is a somebody who's a former fellow at the Heritage Foundation. The Heritage Foundation is the architect of Project 2025. It literally says, in Project 2025 that they want to ban books. This, to me, is a signal that maybe publishers are going to swing more conservative, because that's where they see the political winds have shifted. That's where they see the political winds have gone, have shifted.

Samira Ahmed 39:00

I certainly hope not, though, because those book bans impact so many of their authors, and so, at the same time, they're having litigation and trying to push back against book bans. So you know, like in most capitalist systems, corporations want to. You know, corporations have a bottom line and they'll do what it takes to get. You know, they'll do what it takes to get their bottom line to where they want it to be, but at the same time, I hope, because there are a lot of individuals in publishing and, for example, the employees of Hachette pushed back on that new imprint by sending a letter to the CEO saying how problematic they thought it was, and that actually gives me hope, because those employees, that staff of Hachette, are the ones who are working with me. So I see that there's hope even internally, even though sometimes, like in the C-suite, they're making choices that feel like they are going against me.

Samira Ahmed 40:08

I see everywhere people speaking out and standing up and we just need to have more of that, because there definitely has been, you know, a backlash, and I think you know there's been interesting conversations on social media just over the last week, specifically around BookTok and Bookstagram and how Bookstagrammers and Booktalkers there's been a lot of accounts that have been saying, well, you know, books aren't political and we should all be friends and art isn't political. And then there's been all these other Booktalkers and Bookstagrammers who are saying what do you mean? Art is totally political. And so, just as an author, I want to say yes, art is political.

Samira Ahmed 40:52

The choices we make on what we write and what we read are political choices, and the same goes for publishers. The choices of the books that they are going to publish and also market, where they're putting their marketing dollars, where they're putting their publicity dollars. Those are political choices and, as readers and as authors, it's up to us to hold their feet to the fire a little bit, to say, hey, if you really believe in freedom to read and the freedom to write, you got to support these books, and the public can send that message by buying those books.

J.D. Myall 41:28

True, and that's a very privileged place to sit in, to be like well, we don't have to. We shouldn't, because, as a black woman, my existence itself is political. You know what I mean?

Samira Ahmed 41:39

I mean, I think, people who say that are exactly what you're saying, which is they're so privileged that they have never had their life be politicized. I mean, I remember one week after Trump was last inaugurated that's when the Muslim ban started One week. And we know that they're going to expand on that Muslim ban because he's literally said it, and we know that they're going to have mass deportations. That's one of the first things they want to do.

J.D. Myall 42:08

And there aren't that many undocumented people in this country. So that means they're coming for the dreamers. That means they're coming for people's abuelas.

Samira Ahmed 42:15

That means they're coming for people's spouses oh, of course yes, and I don't think people realize how horrible it can be like americans have like a very short memory for our history. You know, there's this French phrase a happy people have no history and America is generally, look, you know, when you Americans have this, um, I think, kind of this reputation abroad, for, like, we're always smiley, we're all you know, we smile with our teeth, we're like happy, like whatever, but at the same time we have such a collective like amnesia or even ignorance about our own history, and a lot of what I write about speaks to that. Because in my all of my books, internment hollow fires. This book won't burn. Um loving other filters.

Samira Ahmed 43:12

Um, I speak to historical truths because I think it's important to lay those bare for us and I think it's important, as americans, for us to confront who we have been, who we are, what we have done, and book banners want us to forget about it. They want us to forget that there's been 400 years of chattel slavery in this country, that literally built it, that built the White House. They want us to forget the oppression and genocide of Native Americans. They want us to forget the Indian boarding schools that we forced children into. They want us to forget how we have separated children from their families. They want to forget, just eight years ago, that kids were in cages.

J.D. Myall 44:04

And they put the man that put them there back in power.

Samira Ahmed 44:07

Yeah.

J.D. Myall 44:08

And our tax dollars put them there.

Samira Ahmed 44:11

And I think one thing that is so important for people to remember, because you know, it's true, like we have all these books about dystopian, like heroes, like fighting the system, and we have all these incredible like historical fiction books. Like I've been reading a lot recently about you know, I've been reading a lot of historical fiction like set around the time of the Holocaust and the Nazis and, yes, we're always reading about people who fought back. We're reading about the resistance, and those stories are so important. I want people to keep reading those. But I also want people to keep in mind that the reason those regimes have succeeded in the past is because too many people stay quiet. Oops, sorry, too many people stay quiet. Too many people acquiesced, too many people complied in advance Too many people obeyed in advance.

J.D. Myall 45:05

Why do you believe, or how do you believe, that diverse stories and stories from marginalized creators can help shape young people's understanding of themselves and others?

Samira Ahmed 45:21

so can I? Can I just tell? I know we're gonna, we're gonna end soon, but can I just tell you a little story of like when I first heard about one of my books being censored? So there was a teacher who told me about how my second novel, internment. Internment is a novel that's set like 15 minutes into the future where an authoritarian is elected president and he begins putting Muslims into internment camps, similar to what happened to Japanese Americans, and she wanted to teach us in her all her mostly white rural school in a small district and she wanted to bring it to her kids because she was like I want my kids to read diversely and like read beyond what they know.

Samira Ahmed 46:01

But two teachers objected to my book being in the curriculum to being taught there and they strongly objected and they said to her we don't believe we should read this book here, this book doesn't have a place where we are. And the teacher who wanted to teach my book was like what? She was sort of taken aback because they were very vociferous in their objection and she told me she's a single mom and she's primary wage earner in her family and she was frankly scared for her job. Like what am I supposed to do? She thought, and so she did, you know, try to gently push back. And she asked them well, why not? And they said to her well, there's no Muslims or Indians who go to this school. Wow, yeah. And my response and I can tell you that is not the first time I have heard that about my book being in schools and my response to everyone who says that to me is well, you know, you probably have Lord of the Rings in your library, but you don't teach Hobbits.

J.D. Myall 47:00

Exactly, and if you don't have representation, then you need it more, not less.

Samira Ahmed 47:04

Yes, exactly Because I think that young people we know, factually we know, that books build empathy, that stories connect us to each other, that they make us see each other, as they humanize us to one another.

Samira Ahmed 47:21

But they also help me see that, hey, you might have some similar problems to me. Maybe you don't have the same exact background as me, maybe your family doesn't look like mine, but guess what? There are so many things that we actually have in common and, especially for young people, I want them to see how we are connected to each other, and books and stories can do that. They build empathy. They help us see a world so much bigger than our own. The bubbles that we live in are small, especially when you're young, especially when you're in that school, and they help us understand that we live in a much, much bigger world and that world is beautiful and has infinite diversity and we're part of that and you know, our voice is part of that song that we can sing together and I think stories help young people and even older people see that that. You know Walt Whitman called America a song and I think that each of us has a verse that we contribute and all of our verses are so so important.

J.D. Myall 48:39

I love that. I love that. What are you working on now?

Samira Ahmed 48:44

So I have a book coming out in May called the Singular Life of Arya Patel and it's about it's sort of like I'm calling it like the Midnight Library meets everything everywhere all at once, because it's a story about a young woman who gets sort of caught in the multiverse but needs to try to get back home to save her mom, but can't figure out a way to get there. And when she gets stuck in this one world, it seems so great and it seems so wonderful and she's starting to fall in love and she has her version of her family there. But she knows also that she has to try to get home because what would happen to her mom without her? So it's a young, it's a story, you know, it's like a love story and it's a story about finding home, and it's a story about finding home and it's a story about recognizing who you are, and so I'm very excited to share that one.

Samira Ahmed 49:34

That's how it comes out in May of next year. And then I'm also currently working on a novel in verse which hasn't been announced yet, but I'm very excited about that too, and when I it's, it's set during World War II and it's fiction, but it's a story of a little bit about some of the unsung heroes of World War II and specifically about ways that Indians actually were so involved in World War II, but we often are completely written out of that story.

J.D. Myall 50:10

World War II, but we often are completely written out of that story. I'm going to do some quick ones, because I know we're running short on time. So do some quick craft questions and then I'll let you go, I promise. How do you hook readers from the first page?

Samira Ahmed 50:27

So I have this, I have this kind of formula that I realized it's not really I didn't intend to do it as a formula, but I realized that on when my stories come together, when I get the seed of an idea, it comes in three ways a character, a conflict and a question. And all those three things appear, like obviously, across the novel, and then I realized they appear in my first chapter and then I realized, well, they actually appear on the first page and what I really think is that they're actually all exist within the first sentence, and that first sentence to me is this really, really important hook, and I want each sentence to be almost like not really a mystery per se, but a little bit of a mystery, a little question that draws you in and makes you wonder what next? What, if so? I guess that's how I try to hook the reader. I mean like, for example, the first sentence of my.

Samira Ahmed 51:23

I also tend to write very short first sentences. The first sentence of this book won't burn, was just fire isn't the only thing that can burn you. And so I like to. I want the reader to ask wait, who's talking? What else can he get burned by? Who burned this person, Like you know? So I want it to sort of raise questions for the reader, and I think that pulls them in.

J.D. Myall 51:45

Love that. How do you avoid the soggy middle?

Samira Ahmed 51:50

of that. How do you avoid the soggy middle? By rewriting. I I honestly think that some. I'm a very linear writer, so I write from, like you know, line one to the end, and I'm not one of the writers who can like. I know some writers can just say like, oh, I'm gonna skip to like uh, this middle section and write this scene. I can't really do that, and so sometimes I have to just slog through because you cannot edit a blank page.

J.D. Myall 52:14

Very true, very true. And how do you tie up the knots and make a satisfying ending?

Samira Ahmed 52:20

I think a satisfying ending is a really interesting. I actually think that's such an interesting concept to talk about. I don't necessarily. I try to give the character the ending they deserve, the ending that they've earned. I love that.

Samira Ahmed 52:40

Is the reader always going to be happy and satisfied? I don't know, I'm not sure, Cause I think every reader has a different experience. But I don't think I always say that, Cause I think every reader has a different experience. Um, but I don't think I always say that the the book may have ended but the story continues, because I don't think it's possible to tie up every single thing about a character's life, especially when they're 17 by the last sentence.

Samira Ahmed 53:04

But I hope what it does is, I think, of those that sort of like the end of that, the end of my character's arc, like in the story, like that last sentence or that last paragraph, is just actually the little boost that's getting them to the next stage in their life. And so some writers, some readers don't always love that and they're like wait, but does she get together with this person, or does she do X, Y or Z? And I'm always like you know what? That's what fan fiction is for, and however you think happens next. I think that's cool. I've tried to give this character the ending that they earned and deserved, and if you want something a little different, I think it's cool to imagine what you want to.

J.D. Myall 53:49

I love that. Any advice for aspiring authors or debuts and people new to the industry.

Samira Ahmed 53:56

Well, I mean, I think one thing is really important about writing is to know yourself. It took me a really long time to figure out my process and I realized that there's always there's a ton of advice coming in, but it doesn't always fit. I realize that there's always there's a ton of advice coming in, but it doesn't always fit who you are and how you approach story. And I think knowing yourself is so important because it's really easy to get drawn into, like wait.

Samira Ahmed 54:17

I don't know the snowflake method and I don't know the wait. Am I going to answer these 12 questions in this way or whatever? And I think you can sometimes get bogged down in that. So I'm a big believer in knowing yourself, figuring out your own process and getting it all out on that in that first draft. And that a reminder. It doesn't need to be perfect. Like every day when I sit down I think, like, look, the writing doesn't have to be perfect, but I want to make some progress, and maybe that you know. So progress, not perfection. And maybe when you're drafting, and maybe that progress means, oh man, I I gotta throw this chunk out, that soggy middle you're talking about, Like, ah, I mean, these 10,000 words are out, but that's still progress. So, as you're drafting, progress, not perfection is kind of what I go by. And then when we get to the edits, and you know the fine tuning, yes, make it as perfect a book as you can. Love that, love that.

J.D. Myall 55:12

How can people connect with you?

Samira Ahmed 55:14

So samirahamedcom is my website and I'm on Instagram at S-A-M underscore A-Y-E, underscore A-H-M, at, you know, at Instagram. I'm on threads there and I'm on blue sky, just as Samir Ahmed.

J.D. Myall 55:32

Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and your insight.

Speaker 4 55:35

All right you can take it easy. That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD Mayer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayocom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join jd's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.