Season 3 Episode 2: Writing Craft, Market Trends, and Agent Insights: Sarah Younger’s Blueprint for Success

What if a book could change the entire course of your career? Join us on Craft Chat Chronicles as we sit down with literary agent Sarah Younger, who shares her transformative journey from a reluctant reader to a champion of authors. Discover how a serendipitous encounter with "Ella Enchanted" ignited Sarah's passion for books and led her through a whirlwind of experiences across Europe, small presses, and summer programs, all in pursuit of her dream role in commercial fiction. Her story is a testament to persistence and the power of storytelling.

Together with Sarah, we navigate the ever-evolving landscape of literary representation, especially in the romantic fiction genre. From the burgeoning trend of "romanticy" to the potential rise of romantic suspense with relatable, everyday heroes, Sarah offers a behind-the-scenes look at what's capturing readers' hearts. She also opens up about the dynamics of agent-client relationships, focusing on the importance of personalized strategies and the inclusion of diverse voices to enrich the literary world. Aspiring agents will find valuable insights on building strong relationships and understanding the nuanced role they play in an author's long-term journey.

Our conversation wouldn't be complete without tackling the practical sides of publishing today, such as managing author expectations and the pivotal role of social media presence. Sarah shares sage advice for both budding agents and authors, highlighting the significance of finding the right fit in agent partnerships and being cautious with initial offers. We also explore market trends in a fun, speculative game that assesses the status of various literary themes. This episode is packed with wisdom, humor, and practical tips for anyone passionate about the ever-fascinating world of publishing.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmyallcom. That's jdmyallcom.

Speaker 2 0:38

In season three, episode two of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have the pleasure of talking to literary agent Sarah Younger. Sarah talks about her agenting journey, she gives advice for aspiring literary agents, she gives advice to authors on what they should be looking for in a literary agent and what literary agents may look for in a client, and she gives tips on crafting fiction that sells, and talks about so much more. So please stay tuned. It's an interesting conversation. Again, season three, episode two of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have Sarah Younger, literary agent. Let's get chatty. Oh my goodness, what first drew you into the world of publishing?

Speaker 3 1:33

Ooh, I mean, I think I was a read. Well, actually I was a reluctant reader at first. My parents were like we have to get your reading minutes in, we need to sign your paper in, like first or second grade. And then I finally fell in love with reading with a book called Ella Enchanted in, like the third grade. And then my parents had to pry all the books out of my little hands.

Speaker 3 1:59

I was reading in math class, I was reading everywhere, and so I think I absolutely came into this business as a reader first. So it was as a reader and it's like how do I turn this into something in publishing? How do I make a job out of this? And then it was a long road till we got here, but that's where we started and how did you become an agent?

Speaker 3 2:25

And how did you become an agent? So this is should I do a long story? Do we have time? So when I was in college, I was that person who was, like you know, asking our college textbook bookstore to pre-order the Twilight series. I needed New Moon and they were like you know, we only really do things on the curriculum and I'm like you're a bookstore, you can order me books.

Speaker 3 2:49

This was pre Amazon, and so I was asking for books and I was like you know, maybe, like I don't feel, like I have the gifts and talents to be an editor, but I can talk about books, so maybe I should go the publicity route. So I was. I went to UNC Chapel Hill and I was a communications major, was I went to UNC Chapel Hill and I was a communications major and I went to the journalism school and I was like I'm going to be in PR. And then, I will be very honest, I did a couple internships. One of those was in public relations with Algonquin, and I was like I am not a hundred percent sure this is the right place for me. And so when I graduated, I had first learned about agenting from someone who had graduated a year before me and then was interning at an agency. But I graduated and I ended up. So I'm from a small town in North Carolina and I ended up.

Speaker 3 3:37

I didn't study abroad, but I got a travel bursary after graduation from my school, the Francis L Phillips Travel Scholarship, and so I did a literary and dramaturgical tour of England, scotland, wales, ireland, france. I was supposed to go to Germany but I got scared in France, so I didn't go to Germany. And when I came back I was like, oh, let me start applying to all these publishing jobs because I just got so inspired on this trip. And a lot of the responses were can you interview next week? And they were mostly all in New York and my parents are the go with God, but we are not paying for you type of parent. And I was like, sadly, I come to New York for these interviews. Um, and so I had a bit of a boomerang and I started working at a small press in North Carolina called Press 53. They did poetry, short stories, flash fiction, um, and I was interning with them. And then Kevin, the owner, was like you know, do you ever want to figure out these ebook things? Like, I'll pay you some commission. And so I learned how to hand HTML code books and get get their whole ebook program started.

Speaker 3 4:39

And all this time I knew that I wanted to work on commercial fiction. That's where my heart is. I wanted to work on books that, like I had been reading and loving for, you know, ever, it seemed at that point. And so I ended up applying to some of the publishing master's programs or the summer certificate master's and again, being from North Carolina, even though I got into schools in New York, I was a little scared. So I went to Denver thinking, oh, it's a little bit smaller town, it's not as big city. But when I was at the Denver Publishing Program Publishing Institute, really all signs pointed to New York and so I learned a little bit more about agenting, but still not enough after that summer intensive, and so I came to the city.

Speaker 3 5:23

Afterwards I had a friend who had just graduated from art school and they had two roommates and their parents were paying for them and they were like. I was like Can I sleep on your couch or on an air mattress? They were like sure. So I came to New York and I did a whole bunch of interviews and one of those was with the Chris Lotz agency. And I'm going to give you a heads up, I did not get that job, um, but I did three rounds of interviews and they were like at the very beginning of forming and they said you know, sarah, we think you're great, but we need an agent who has a list and you're very much so entry level. And I was like, yes, I am very entry level and, um, I ended up taking a temp position at John Wiley and Sons in textbook publishing and even though that wasn't my heart, it was like a temp position.

Speaker 3 6:13

And while I was there, laura Anderson emailed and said you know, my colleague, nancy Yost, is looking for a new assistant. I've already sent her your resume and cover letter. You should reach out. So I go and I Google Nancy Yost and I see that, like the books that I was sneaking into my math class when I was in high school were the books that she was repping. And so I then went in for an interview with Nancy, thinking, you know, it's probably not going to be it, but I go in and I interview with her and at the end of it I was like you know, nancy, even if I don't get this job, I just want to thank you for your list and the books that you're working on.

Speaker 3 6:52

I was reading Loretta Chase on my Kindle on the way over and she was like, oh really, can I see your Kindle? So I handed over my soul and she got to flip through everything and see what I was reading and, you know, then she offered me the job as the assistant and that's where I really learned what agenting was like. I wish I could say and I'm sorry that that was such a long story but I wish I could say that I learned about it in a different capacity. But I don't think that even in the classes I took at DPI and having agents come in, I don't think I really understood what agenting was and what we do and how we work with our authors, until it was like boots on the ground, like you're getting this one-on-one um, you know introduction. So sorry for the long story.

Speaker 2 7:32

I'm not, you're fine, that's fine, okay, um, tell me how you brokered your first deal. How did your first sales still go?

Speaker 3 7:39

Ooh. So my first deal was for a book called uh, undone. It was a three book series for my author, shannon Richard, who is still a current author of mine, and so I remember working with Nancy, like leading up to it. So I found Shannon in the queries, so she was in the slush pile back in the day sending them in, and I had done. Nancy had set up a series of oh, this is an editor I work with and they have an assistant and you all should meet, and so she had set up a series of meetings and I had been on chats and so I had worked with Shannon.

Speaker 3 8:14

And then, when it came to the submission, nancy and I went out on submission at the same time, or like it was my submission, but Nancy helped make phone calls. We were making phone calls back in the day and so we were calling up these editors and I was in Nancy's office and she had it on speakerphone and she would be like hi, and then I gave my little pitch, because it was a verbal pitch, and then I followed it up with an email and from there we had several people interested and we were able to broker a little auction at the time, coming down to like several players, and so that's how it came about. You know, it was really I don't know if that makes sense, but it was like seeding it with meetings first being able to pitch it, and it was a contemporary romance and it's still amazing, it's called Undone by Shannon Richard, which is spelled like Richard. And my second deal was an Avon Impulse deal and I will tell you, I had this is a sidebar and I had two authors it was Julie Branagh at the time and Shannon Richard and their heroes were named Brendan and Brandon.

Speaker 3 9:21

And when I tell you, I kept getting Brendan and Brandon mixed up in my head while I was pitching and even in my pitch letters, so I send them out to my authors. I got an email back from either Shannon or Julie being like so it's Brendan or it's Brandon, and I'm like I'm so sorry that one letter Anyways.

Speaker 2 9:41

That's exciting. So your first book sales auction, that's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 9:45

I know it really hit hit. I think it was right around the time when contemporary romance was taking off. It was right it was in the. I think I signed Shannon in the summer of 2012 and then I think I sold in the summer of 2013. So we did a little bit of polishing and setting things up for a little bit.

Speaker 2 10:05

What was your proud? What is your proudest moment as an agent so far?

Speaker 3 10:20

Oh gosh, I can't pinpoint one. But I will say, every single time I have an author who's like well, sometimes they are shocked when I finally get to say your book is becoming a real book. Like well, sometimes they are shocked when I finally get to say your book is becoming a real book. But I think that the ones who are like I didn't know that this would happen, or they faced a number of struggles, or I have an author that comes to mind who a number of people had told her no, or we had had a number of rejections of submissions prior to and then when we finally get that book sold and it's happened numerous times like that is the biggest triumphant of like. We stuck to it, we climbed the mountain, we did it. So I think, anytime there's there's been some struggle or some hardship and there's still belief in a vision or belief in an author, and then actually being able to kind of make that dream come true, like, that's what gets me teary eyed, that's what, that's what brings it home for me.

Emerging Trends in Literary Representation

Speaker 2 11:11

Awesome. You mentioned about signing her when romance was about to take off. What do you see being trendy or taking off right now?

Speaker 3 11:21

Well, I think the buzzword right now is romanticy, but I do think that romanticy is getting a little saturated and I see in some ways, it's slowing down. In some ways they're not right. So publishers have acquired a lot of romanticy right now and so they're looking to see like, okay, what's next? What's going to take off, as your question is? But I want to acknowledge the romanticy in the room of it all, but I do think that I think romantic suspense, or a new evolution of what was romantic suspense, is coming. I do think that the one thing that I will say is that romantic suspense of like 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,.

Speaker 3 11:58

Had a lot of former military or police heroes. You know, you have one as a detective and I think that those, obviously, like our military heroes, are still amazing and wonderful. But I do think that it's moving that I think that that will be the shift of who our heroes, heroines, or our protagonists or love interests will be, of all varieties. Is is less on the military side because there's so much conflict going on in the world, um, but I see it moving perhaps in a direction of being, um, more of our everyday people who are overcoming some crazy obstacles in a suspense space, like even coming from um true crime, spaces of where people have solved murders or been on TikToks or podcasts or whatever and following. I think that that type of romantic suspense is going to come into play.

Speaker 2 12:57

What qualities do you think make a successful literary agent?

Speaker 3 13:02

I think a successful literary agent first uh, first puts their clients first right Like, is responsive to them, is on time, is able to listen to individual needs and wants and to be able to know that not every plan or path fits every author, particularly in this publishing environment Some is trad, some is hybrid, some is indie, some is sub rights. Being able to pivot when changes come to the market and being able to strategize and plan with your authors is so important. And I also think somebody who's really attuned to the market right, and who's able to watch and see what's happening and then also match make with your clients of like you know what, I know that you like I had an author who had a romantic idea when I first signed them, but right then fantasy romance was not really big. So we worked on a contemporary rom-com and we sold her in the contemporary space. But then, when the tides were starting to turn, I was like you know, that project you shelved, can we resurface it Like, can we bring it back?

Speaker 3 14:10

So being able to kind of analyze your author strengths and catalyze and then also be attuned to the market and see what's happening. And then I think the last bit which is still very important is the relationship building right. So like building obviously a very professional relationship with your clients, but also having professional relationships with editors and knowing what they want and being able to communicate with them and being able to bring that back to your clients. But also having professional relationships with editors and knowing what they want and being able to communicate with them and being able to bring that back to your clients is so very important. So I think, like being able to relationship build on all sides is really important. And timely emails you got to get back to your emails.

Speaker 2 14:40

Very true. So what does your agent's client relationships look like? Um like, do they come to you with ideas and say, hey, I want to write a, b and c, or do they come to you with fully fleshed out manuscripts? Or is it like a hybrid mesh of the two, like the mix of all of it?

Speaker 3 15:00

it really is. I will say, like it's a. So I have clients who come to me with being like hey, sarah, I had a dream and I know I should have been writing this book this summer. But I wrote this and like, here you go, like I think it's weird, I'll probably be published. And I was like, let me read it. And then I was able to sell it in a preempt. And those are amazing.

Speaker 3 15:17

And then I also have authors being like hey, sarah, what do people want to write? Like I'm feeling a little creativity, like blocked right now, and I'll be able to say like oh well, I've had these meeting with editors. They're looking for this, this and this. Does this spark anything for you, right? And then I have authors who are like you know, it seems like every week they're emailing me with a new idea. Like I have this idea, what about this? And I was like this is great, let's put it in the folder. Like we'll revisit it.

Speaker 3 15:42

Um, a lot of times that happens when they are late on a deadline. It's like what about writing this other thing? And I'm like finish your book please? Um, but I think, like, creatively, like that's one of the things where, like, I have to, um, figure out what's best for my author, right, some of them are slower, slower writers, and so you have to make sure that the idea is going to be one that's a bit evergreen, right, it's not going to be a flash in the pan and to be like, okay, is this going to appeal to readers if you're writing it now, in three years? Right, is it going to be something that still works.

Speaker 3 16:13

And then I have other authors who can write 90,000 words in two months and I am like I am barely keeping up with you. But you know what? Hockey romance is hot right now. If you want to hockey romance it up and us to do an indie thing, let's go right. Like, we can sell sub rights, we'll work on audio.

Speaker 3 16:29

So I will say, like I think that knowing how your author writes and what market they're trying to tap into is how we work with the ideas. And I will say one of the biggest things, like for authors who are just like I, like I try not to waste anybody's time and so, like I really do love it when authors come to me and they say, like, hey, sarah, here's the list I've been keeping of, like the 15 ideas what sounds good to you, and then I'll go through and I'll be like, okay, you know what? I think I know a number of editors who want something like this. Let's go with this one, like let's write sample pages for this one, or let's write the full for this one, and then we'll take it on submission. That's really fun for me.

Speaker 2 17:10

Love that, love that. Do your authors do IP projects, or is it mostly just original content?

Speaker 3 17:16

You know, occasionally an IP project will come up. It's not something that I would say that I do every month in terms of deals, but I'll probably say like one to two a year based across my entire client list. So it's not and it's not for every author on my list, particularly the ones who are more mood writers or creative or they need to have that muse. But I also have some authors who are like Sarah, point me in a direction, I can write a book and I'm like okay. So you know, occasionally and I'll go to my authors and be like, hey, is this something that seems of interest to you? And then it's a conversation moving forward.

Speaker 2 17:51

Love that, love that. What advice do you have to give to anyone who wants to break into the industry as an agent?

Speaker 3 17:57

As an agent, I would say so, obviously reading in the genres that you love. And then I really like it to give the advice of looking at the dedications and acknowledgments of those books to see which agents agented them. Because it was really fun, after I started working with Nyla, going back and seeing the number of books who had a dedication to Nancy in them, and some of them she didn't even have copies of anymore, so I brought them to her. Um, but being able to see, like okay, so these are the people working and publishing the books that I want to work on, and and instead of doing the path of mine, where it was like pure luck and coincidence, like thank you for the stars aligning to get me here, but, um, maybe reverse engineering, seeing if they have an internship program, seeing if they have job openings, like being able to study their list and how they create it. So I would say, obviously reading and then looking at dedications and acknowledgements.

Speaker 3 18:51

And then also there I know that the AALA, the Association of Literary Agents I think I got that acronym right. It used to be the AAR, but it's the AALA. Be the AAR, but it's the AALA, the Association of American Literary Agents, is starting to work on. I know that we have an internship program and a mentorship program, but I do think that they're trying to because this business does feel like a hard one to get into because it is very mentorship based. I know that they're trying to work on building like a curriculum of some kind so that it's easier for people who haven't heard of this Like I didn't know it and didn't really understand it till boots on the ground to have a better understanding of what agenting is and how to approach. So I would say, like watch the AALA for more to come in that space.

Agenting and Author Careers

Speaker 2 19:38

Love that. How did you curate your list?

Speaker 4 19:43

I feel very blessed in how my list came together from a number of.

Speaker 3 19:48

So it started out with queries, like going through query piles, started out referrals. I will tell you, before the pandemic I went to a lot of conferences. I was actually purging yesterday and cleaning out and I found a whole big patch of like conference badges of where I would take pitches. But I think, in terms of how I've designed my list, one of the things that, like I've mentioned before, like I grew up in small town, north Carolina, and my family didn't travel much out of the southeast, but the books that I read took me places and gave me other perspectives and viewpoints and really expanded my world.

Speaker 3 20:22

So something that I've always kept in mind, from my very first and early author signings, is that I want to work with authors who have different viewpoints of my own than my own. I want to work with authors who don't look like me, who don't talk like me, who haven't been from my same, like from the same region where I grew up in, who have different socioeconomic backgrounds. Like I think that lifting up stories that are, you know, that expand my worldview, are really important and that's something that I've tried to cultivate on my list. And so I think, like the tagline that I use is like I've cultivated a list of diverse and talented and award-winning authors or something like that in my bio, and it's something that's really important to me.

Speaker 2 22:03

Love that. What is the biggest misconception aspiring agents have about the job?

Speaker 3 22:10

Oh, I mean, I think if you've been working in it for, like you know, a year, they all know. But I think I think that the one thing that I would say is that it took me about seven years before I felt truly established, and I feel really blessed that I was one of the agents that actually got to work full time at an agency while I was building my list. So I was an agency assistant, right, and so I was able to be immersed in it day to day. And I know that a number of agents, particularly in the entry level space, they're working multiple jobs. They're not always working in an agency full time.

Speaker 3 22:48

Sometimes they're working in a bookstore, they have like a bookkeeping job and then they're also building their list, and I know that that's really hard, and I would say like it took me about seven years before I could feel like, okay, I could sustain this without all of the other assistant duties, and so I think that you know there is an end in sight, but sometimes it's a long road. When it comes to earnings, though, I do know agents who have had like amazing bestsellers on their first or second author and like more power to them. I think that it's just been a little bit uh uh. I had I had a few more steps to climb before I felt like it was like super financially viable in terms of like what my work was like, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 23:34

Were you paid for assistant thing? I was, cause I know some okay, cause I know some agencies don't really say that used to.

Speaker 3 23:40

Yeah, no, I had a. I had a salary from beginning. It was modest, it was a very modest salary in New York city, like a school teacher, um entry level school teacher, cause we have great unions in New York, uh but uh. But I did have a modest, I did have a salary and I did have health insurance and I did have. And I give major props to Nancy for um for setting her agency up that way.

Speaker 2 24:07

Love that. What role does an agent play in shaping an author's career for the longterm?

Speaker 3 24:14

I think that it really depends on the author, right? Because I think that there are some authors who have a very specific plan and vision from the very beginning that they're like okay, you are my partner to help me execute this. But I think some other authors are coming in and they're like I have this idea for a book and I know this is my genre, but I can see it here, but I don't know any of the steps of the in-between, right, and sometimes they think their career is here, but really it's like this is where their market is and so it's an agent for coming in and being able to be like you know what? It's not all an uphill climb. Sometimes we have peaks, we have valleys, we need to regroup, we need to strategize, and so I think that the shaping really comes in with how collaborative an author is, if they, you know, even, or, or if they don't have a specific vision. But they're like I just want to write my books and I'm like okay, well, first we're gonna go like do you want to prioritize money? Do you want to prioritize listens? Do you want to prioritize social? Like, what are your priorities? And then we can build your career around it, right. So I think, when it comes to shaping an author's career, it's really asking questions of the author to get to the heart of what they want out of this right.

Speaker 3 25:27

I have some authors who have full time. They are full time attorneys and they're like I have no, I'm not planning on quitting my day job. I'm actually quite fulfilled working full time, but I still want to write. I'm not planning on quitting my day job. I'm actually quite fulfilled working full time, but I still want to write. I still have this creative passion. I still want to add to. And so, like they want to be successful, but they it's not in their plan to fully transition from full-time work, right, and so it's like okay, so this is your plan. We're still going to have career goals and milestones for you, but maybe we're not putting financial first. Maybe we're putting in um, maybe we're putting in reviews and accolades so that you can have an amazing party and launch party and be able to talk and career guide that way, right, like based off of their time and their needs, and go from there. I don't know if that's a great example, but that's a good example.

Speaker 2 26:21

Out of curiosity, who are your lawyer? Authors.

Speaker 3 26:26

Oh, I don't know. I can share ones that are open, but some of them write under pen names, so they're not. But I have an author. Her name is Jeanette Escudero and she writes under two names. She writes under Jeanette Escudero and Sydney Houghton and she is an attorney and she is a mom of three, and I do not know how she finds the time. I also have an author my only male author at the moment. His name is Richard Lister and he wrote a nonfiction football book. I don't really do nonfiction, but I got very passionate about it like 2013, 2014. And we did a nonfiction football book. And he is now a retired attorney, but he consults on the side and he's a grandpa, and so he babysits his grandchildren and writes. So let's see, I have JC Lee was an attorney.

Speaker 2 27:31

She is now a writer full time. She was one of the ones that wanted to transition.

Speaker 3 27:32

So she is a writer full time now and also mom. And then Mia Sosa. We have a lot of lawyers I was expecting like one name names. No, I have so many and this is only the ones that I'm like open about there. And the thing is that a number of attorneys they learn how to write really fast in law school and those skills like when they're like, oh, I've been in legal tomes for hours, their creative brain is just like can I go write this story? So they're super talented. But Mia Sosa is also uh, you know a, a Yale law school grad and is amazingly talented. And I could go on, but I will stop there.

Speaker 2 28:07

Okay, moving on to queries, what's the most common writing mistake that you see in queries and submissions?

Speaker 3 28:13

This is going to be really basic, but like sending me something that I don't rep. So that's the biggest mistake. It's really and I and I don't I I hate to say it, but it's just people who are throwing everything out there, right, instead of really tailoring who they're sending to. And and I would say, like the spaghetti against the wall, like yes, sometimes things stick, but you've expended so much energy in doing that, when, if you really tailored your query or your submission, like you're going to have better luck, right, like if you're able to curate in that way or not, better luck, but a better percentage. It's really just in the math. If you're sending to people who work.

Speaker 3 28:52

So I don't work on YA or children's books. I tried to do YA for the first five years of agenting and I couldn't sell a book to save my life in the YA space, so I was like I'm going to stop. And then now I've done a few YA deals, but it's usually when YA publishers are like, hey, we like your adult author, would they like to write a YA? And I was like I'll ask, but I don't work on middle grade or children's or YA books and so querying me when you could be querying another YA or middle grade agent is really just a waste of your time. And of course, you're going to get higher rejections when you send to people who don't represent the work that you have, if you're not tailoring that so like your numbers are going to be skewed, if you're not sending to people who actually do the work you know, who work on the books that you work on or write.

Speaker 2 29:44

Very true, very true. What makes a strong first chapter, one that would grab your attention?

Speaker 3 29:50

So I say that I have to care about characters first before I care about what they're doing. I'm a very character driven. I'm a some of my authors call me an emotional reader and like I want to be hitting the fields, I want to laugh, I want to cry, and so I want an opening chapter that that engages my emotions and makes me care about your reader and like invested in their storyline, before I know if they're you know they've been hurt by an ex and they're trying to get him back and they're going to key his car. Or if they're you know they've been hurt by an ex and they're trying to get him back and they're going to key his car. Or if they're going on a romantic journey or if they're flying through space, like I want to care about, um, the person that I'm going on this journey with and be invested in this story.

Speaker 2 30:33

Love that, love that. What advice do you have for writers on trying to avoid the saggy middle?

Crafting Riveting Endings and Tension

Speaker 3 30:41

oh, the saggy middle. I would say going back to your, your the hero's journey or the five act structure, um, and really knowing what the beats are that you're supposed to be hitting, and and following that based off the suggested word count for your genre, right? So I think anything in the adult fiction could go from, you know, 75, 80,000 really, to 100,000. And then watching your word count and being like, okay, am I at 120,000? Maybe this is a little long. Let me see if, in the first third of this book, breaking down the word count I have, am I hitting this beat, this plot point? Am I hitting this? Am I going to be delivering on reader expectations? So, going back to the hero's journey, going back to a five-act structure, making sure you have that climax, like I think that that's going to really help avoid the saggy middle. But you know what some of my saggy middles are nice, like I have a little saggy middle. But anyways, me too.

Speaker 2 31:42

What advice do you give your authors on nailing the perfect ending?

Speaker 3 31:47

Oh well, it depends on the type of ending, right. If it is a romance or something where I want it wrapped up, like I'm like I need to know what happens and I would like an epilogue, please. So I know that they ride off into the sunset. But if it's something that's in the mystery thriller, if it's something like there, I want an ending that's gonna be like shut up, that happened. And my biggest thing that I tell authors that I love is I love in like a book that's like a mystery or a thriller or even a romance, where there's some reveal at the end that's going to cause me, as a reader, to go back and read the whole book and see everything you planted to get me to hear that I missed, that was just so obvious. If, after this reveal has happened, like that's how I'm like a book, that when I finish it I immediately need to reread it, that's how I know. And it can be like a mystery reveal, like who done it, like, oh my gosh, like this person all along. Or it could be even in like I have a number of authors who write like book club fiction. Right, what was women's fiction? But it's not just for women, so it's book club fiction, and even in those stories there's like a reveal or an emotional arc or something that like a character learns about themselves. And you're like like I am here crying and sobbing because of whatever has happened and yet like I'm ready to go on this journey again because of what happened right, Because of how these relationships developed.

Speaker 3 33:16

I'm thinking of, like one of my authors, amy T Matthews, who wrote oh my gosh, my brain is blanking. I see her second book here. Hold on, I'm going to tell you what's the author of her first book Somebody Else's Bucket List and it's a sister story and unfortunately, one of the sisters passes and leaves a huge amount of medical debt and the other sister, because she was an influencer and didn't have insurance, and the other sister assumes her bucket list in order to win a sweepstakes of paying off all of her medical debt. And like there's like a reveal in that work, that book, as you go along, the bucket list items that this other sister is traveling on, that like knocked my socks off, had me sobbing. It was just so beautiful. So I love a reveal. I feel like I've gone on too long. You're gonna be like Sarah, why did I set up this interview?

Speaker 2 34:07

I don't know. It's all good information. What are the essential ingredients of a good romance novel?

Speaker 3 34:16

Ooh well, everybody's a little different on their romance novel, I will. My first one is I love a romance with a little bit of spice. I like them.

Speaker 2 34:27

How many peppers are we talking?

Speaker 3 34:30

You know, my chili peppers can range and I will say I work on a number of authors who have no chili peppers to five chili peppers And'm like oh, we have got more than enough here. Um, but I would say like, if, if I'm picking out a book, I would say at least three, like so I need, I need a little bit of spice. Um, I need, uh, I mean, and I love all the genres like how could I not? So I love, I can't say like contemporary paranormal fantasy, sci-fi, because I love it all. But I would say I go back and forth between do I like a cinnamon roll hero or do I like an alpha hero, and so I think for me it really depends on, um, the characters, or I mean it could also be heroine, because I also represent a number of queer books so it could be hero, hero, heroine, heroine, hero, heroine, I don't care.

Speaker 3 35:20

But the love interest to me, I do think that I tend to like a grumpy love interest and I do tend to think that the main character that we're following in the story, if they're more on the sunshine, like it's kind of like you have like the dragon who's going to be like guarding the you know, like, oh, here's my fairy, princess or prince. I tend to like that, like I'm thinking of some of my favorite romances by Lisa Kleepis and a number of those books, like I'm trying to think it's Poppy Hathaway's book and it's so anyways, I tend to like those with a more grumpy love interest and then we have our sunshine and then some spice.

Speaker 2 36:09

Love that, love that. How would you suggest writers come up with believable romantic tension?

Speaker 3 36:26

I think it's all in the questions of like, what is keeping them apart? Right, because I do know that there's a trend now in romance of having them be slightly lower stakes and like taking out the conflict. But I think that you can build tension with conflict even if it's not like, oh, they're breaking up, they're being apart, but like what's keeping them from kissing right now? Like what's, like, do they have a day job? Is somebody there? Are they like afraid of PDA, like whatever is like creating that cackling energy between them? Like, are they antagonists? Did they wrong each other? Was there a misunderstanding? I think that you create, um, you create that, that tension in in the conflict, be that interpersonal conflict, be that external conflict. But like that's how you get the push, pull of, like you know, creating that really amazing romantic tension.

Speaker 2 37:13

Love that, love that. Um, you also rep a lot of paranormal. What makes a good paranormal fiction or paranormal romance?

Speaker 3 37:21

I think that it's absolutely world building right. Obviously, character comes first for me, but I think that when you have contemporary set stories, they get to rely on the everyday. That's already understood. I mean, gravity works and cars currently don't fly.

Speaker 3 37:38

But when you move into paranormal or fantastical, it's really on how the author is communicating, how this world is built Right, and I think that that's where you rely on and it's like those analogies or the picture building or the imagery it's really working to share the rules of how these paranormal elements work and create that canon and then unfortunately keep to that canon in a continuity, because if you contradict yourself canon wise or continuity wise then it creates questions for the readers.

Speaker 3 38:14

So I think that it's like creating almost like your world Bible of like how this world works, what's in it, and then making sure that you don't contradict yourself later, which obviously much love to copy editors who are able to catch it. But I do think that even in a pitching standpoint like I can't send out a book that has contradictions in how this world works. You know, if the vampires only survive on human blood, but you don't want them to murder their love interest, so you then have them, you know, have a deer as a snack, but you're like, wait, they can only survive on human blood. Will they just die? Like, how is this folding over? It's just a matter of like how your world works and being able to understand it and make sure that that's clearly communicated to the reader in a way that doesn't bog down the rest of the story and then also not contradicting yourself later on which is hard.

Speaker 2 39:10

Now, when you're evaluating manuscripts, do you take on authors where you know the manuscript needs significant work, or do you want them to be like almost ready to go in stores when they arrive in your inbox?

Speaker 3 39:22

so I've taken on a variety of authors and I will say, like, when I was more junior and had a little bit more room on my list, I took on authors where I knew that I would be doing, you know, multiple rounds of edits.

Navigating Author Expectations and Social Media

Speaker 3 39:33

But I will say, like I'm always a reader first and I have to read anything that I'm going on submission with, because that's how my brain match makes right, like me, reading the story and getting to the end of it is how I know, like, okay, so this is the editor here, here's the editor here, here's who I'm matchmaking the story because, like, I've had conversations with them, I have a relationship with them, like I know what they want, right, I know what they want right. So I have to read everything and I think in my reading, like I'm, I'm generally always going to have notes. I don't think I've ever had a read where I've never had not a single note, be that, even if it's a typo. I've had ones where I've had fewer than others, but I've always had little thoughts because I want to make a submission as strong as possible before going out on submission. I want there to be no reason for an editor to pass, even if it's just because we've had seven chapter 13s and we really need to have 14, 15, and 16 on that submission page Because at some point they're going to be clicking on their Kindle, being like I've been in chapter 13 for what feels like a decade, so like I always want to do it.

Speaker 3 40:34

But I will say I've taken on authors where I've read, like maybe their submission material, or they were querying me and I read their material and I was like I can clearly see that this person is talented and amazingly gifted and had something to write. But this book maybe is not right for the market right now. Right, or maybe this book has edits that I would do on every single page. And they've also sent me a number of ideas that they're excited about and maybe one of those is more right for the market. So I'm like I see your talents here, I see that you're amazing. I love this book. I do think that maybe one of your ideas is more right for the market. So maybe, if you're up for it and it's always up to the author maybe we work together Like I sign you now, if you're game to be signed, I sign you now and we work on this idea that you have together to get it ready for submission and we can continue to work on this book that you queried me on.

Speaker 3 41:26

I obviously don't want to sideline it, but it might be ripe later on down the line, which has happened with some romantic books, it's happened with some paranormal, it's happened with contemporary, just based off of the market and what's ripe and what they're, what they're game to do or not do, which I always respect like if this is the book of your heart and it's one of what you want to work on. Sometimes it's where sometimes we still end up working together. Or sometimes it's like if this is the only thing you want to work on. Like I don't know how to sell this book right.

Speaker 3 41:55

Like I can see that you're talented and this is like the really heartbreaking things that come about in publishing where it's like I can see that you're talented but like I don't want to do you a disservice by signing you and not knowing who I'm going to send this to, because steampunk is really hard right now and I don't know a single editor who's asking me for like steampunk Aquaman, right. Like I don't know how to do that. That's a very hyperbolic example but at the same time like I want to make sure that I am going to be able to make the dreams or the requests or what you want out of your career. I want to be able to partner with you for those next steps, and if I don't know how to execute on those next steps, then I don't want to hold you back. So that's what I would say.

Speaker 2 42:41

Love that, love that. How important is a social media platform for an aspiring author?

Speaker 3 42:49

So this one's a tricksy question.

Speaker 3 42:53

I do think that, more than ever, publishers are wanting authors who do have a social platform and if they have one, that's established and within the community, it's a cherry on top right.

Closing Queries and Managing Submissions

Speaker 3 43:05

Um, I would say, for a debut it's not, and and I will say this, this is counter to a number of other agent colleagues that are at nyla, not a nyla like all over, but I would say from my perspective, it's not required that you have those social handles or platforms pre-built, but I do think that there's an expectation from publishers that you would be willing to be on social media, that you would be willing to have those moving forward, and I have seen in cases where authors who have really strong social platforms, that has helped with acquisition, and so it's one of those things of where I would never say, oh, you have to have this before you go and sub like, go buy your domain names, go buy this, but I do think that it is helpful, um, and publishers, at the very least, want to know that you're willing to create something in that space. Right, they do want you writing, but at the same time, they do know that there is a value of being able to communicate directly with fans on social spaces love that, love that.

Speaker 2 44:17

When do you think you'll be opening for submissions again?

Speaker 3 44:21

When I have an assistant. So I don't yet have an assistant. I am hopeful that I will, that that will change within the next year.

Speaker 2 44:33

Would they have to be in office or would remote work?

Speaker 3 44:38

I think that it would probably. So I'm hybrid. I think that it could probably be remote or hybrid, but I will let you know I do not have permission from Nancy to be like oh, job posting. I mean I will say our internship is fully remote, that we have with our interns and they are able to work successfully. But I do think that it would probably be some sort of hybrid situation where at some point, like I would get to see them in person, but it doesn't have to be in every week thing, Right. But I would say I think that once I have an assistant to help with some offload, some of my other small, like less high touch tasks, that it would be really helpful.

Speaker 2 45:21

Like the slash file and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 45:22

Yeah, I mean, I just so. The reason why I closed to queries is because I felt bad for the wait time that authors had waiting for me to get back to them. But like, as I tell my clients, my current clients are my highest priority. Like, if I have to be able to take care of them, I have to be able to take care of them. I have to be able to read in a timely manner. I have to be able to respond.

Speaker 3 45:42

I try to get down to inbox zero by the end of every day. I will tell you that's not always happening, but I usually get down. I usually I always reply saying like I have your email, I'm coming with an answer. So I try to reply within 24 hours of like a business week. But like I need to make sure that I can read client material and get it out on submission and get it out timely before I can truly open up. But I really would love to, because I love working with new clients and, um, I still get a few referrals snuck through in my inbox every now and again, but they still have a wait.

Speaker 2 46:18

How many um messages do you get on average when you're open like a week?

Speaker 3 46:25

oh, gosh a week. Well, let's see, I'll do my sent messages and I'll just do last week and I'll tell you. I will tell you I can come in. So let let's start. And we did have a holiday, so I'll do just today so far, and these are the only the ones that I've replied to let's. When did we start? What's today? Today is the 15th, okay, so I'm just going to highlight them. Okay, as it's scrolling, you're gonna be. Oh, it's not done. That's only till 2 pm. Oh, I'm getting the rainbow wheel of death. My email's not happy with me, okay. So the last email was the one that I sent to you saying like I'm on the way. Um, today I have sent 173 replies so far and I haven't been on email because I was off, and then let's see if I can. So that's still in the 15th. So let's go back from the 11th. Oh, I was out of the office last week, so that's lower than usual. So I'll do the fourth through the 30th office last week, so that's lower than usual.

Speaker 3 47:46

So I'll do the fourth through the 30th and you're gonna be like what, um, we can get there. Oh, I'm going too far. Like Sarah, I really don't care about this. If you don't, I will stop, but if you want the no, I do. I mean and you have to know, this is 13 years in, so it's not this many when you're starting out.

Speaker 2 48:06

What's the ratio of good to bad ones? Because I read for the Writer's Digest contest. I'm one of the judges and they're usually bad. I'm not going to lie, it's the self-published contest and I'd say a good 80% of theirs, you can tell, are very amateur in the journey anymore.

Speaker 3 48:25

Yeah, so I would say I don't see queries because none of these emails are queries, they're just emails because I'm closed, so none of them to me. Um, but I would say I would put it in the 80 to 90% when you're getting queries like a hundred.

Speaker 2 48:40

Okay, so about the same.

Speaker 3 48:42

Yeah, Um, but in terms of work emails. So 30th through the fourth, we're almost there.

Speaker 2 48:52

I'm sad you don't rep YA. I would have queried you because I oh, there we go.

Speaker 3 48:57

So uh. So a typical week is a little over 500 emails of just that's. That's my reply, so that's not all the emails that I ingest or read.

Speaker 2 49:11

Wow, that's insane. That's insanely busy. When do you have time for anything else?

Speaker 3 49:16

It's hard. It's why I'm closed. I see.

Speaker 2 49:23

How do you know when a novel is going to be a quick sell or when it might be on submission a while or take a little more time?

Speaker 3 49:30

so I will say that I never truly know.

Speaker 3 49:34

I never truly know, but one of the litmus tests that I use is how fast I can I read it.

Speaker 3 49:42

It right, like if I I've had books from my authors that come in, and really it's, it's, it's just like am I going to be a zombie the next day? And I like stay up all night reading when I finally, you know, at 730 or eight, when I get home after dinner, finally get to bed at like 10 or 11. And I like open up my like client manuscripts and it's like okay, am I reading, like, the first few chapters or am I picking up where I left off? Or is it like am I starting it and then the next thing, I know it's 3am and I'm like I've got 17 more chapters and I'm not. So typically, if I have one of those things where I just fall into a book and read it like, those are the ones where I'm like I can't, like I I never want to over-promise and under deliver, but when, um, when something like that happens, like, and I just fall in, that's when I'm like, oh, I hope people feel the same way.

Speaker 2 50:50

Love that, love that. So what advice would you like to?

Speaker 3 50:55

give aspiring agents and then aspiring authors Aspiring agents is working with, uh, like, let's see, like I really prioritize, like putting people first and working with people who are like people-minded and like human first. Like I don't ever want to, um, only focus on the work that they're doing. I want to build that relationship. So my advice for agents is to know that your authors come first, not necessarily in terms of like you need food, water, shelter, sleep, all of that, but like you can prioritize the person in the relationship and like build a career from there right. Like it doesn't have to be like the biggest, like a number of my authors that I work with today who have really wonderful deals that are financially rewarding. Some of those authors and some of our first deals started out with no advanced royalty, only deals right, and so like on the surface those might not have looked like something that you would want to invest into long term, but I love the people, I thought the stories they were writing were amazing and like being able to invest in them and their career long term has paid off. So I don't know how to best term that advice, but hopefully you'll be able to synthesize. You'll be able to synthesize. And then for authors I would say um, you want to find the right fit for you and your vision right. Like, even like I know that you as an author if I'm speaking directly to you or any author that it is a long path to finding your partner and it has a lot of rejection and it's really hard, and the first time you get somebody offering for you, it feels like the light is on. I'm in the elevator, we're going to the top and that's exciting. But I would say, sit and pause and make sure that they're aligned with you on what you want out of your career. Because even when you have an agent coming in and they might have contacts and been in the agents in the world of publishing for a really long time, like sometimes they, they might have a vision that's on a completely different escalator and you're like, but I'm over here and I think, like remaining true to what you want, like being open to seeing, like, oh, maybe I should have done that escalator, maybe it's going faster, maybe this elevator is going to stall out on two floors and I'm going to be stuck, but like being open to it, but also like remaining true to your vision and like the first offer is not always the best offer.

Speaker 3 53:35

Right being able to ask questions, make sure that you're aligned and being able to move forward with confidence that they are the right partner for you and not just accepting an offer of partnership because it's available, is something that I think that you owe it to yourself. To take the time to have it be a right fit. Like it's. It's a mutual relationship, it's a partnership, and I've had a number of authors who have been previously repped before and I don't know every situation or every scenario, but it wasn't the right fit. But I do think that sometimes you feel a lot of pressure to this is right here in front of me. I should take it Same with book deals and offers and I would say, like you have to make sure that it's really the right next step for you in your career and being aligned on that before you go down that path.

Speaker 2 54:25

Love that, love that, all right. So my um. So I promise you I'm coming near the end, I'm not keeping you. I want to play a game where I'll say something and then you tell me if it's dead or alive in the market today.

Speaker 3 54:42

Okay, I'll do my best. I'll be like it's zombie. It's being resurrected, okay.

Speaker 2 54:48

Witches.

Speaker 3 54:50

Witches. I would say witches are alive right now. They're maybe not as hot as they were, but they're alive. Witches are alive. Vampires, Vampires they're back from the dead. Baby Vampires are hot right now.

Speaker 2 55:06

You mentioned zombies, so I'll throw a zombie out.

Speaker 3 55:09

You know what? I have an author coming out with a zombie rom-com next year. So I'm going to say zombies are back from the dead, they're coming up. Yay, ghost. You know, ghosts they're not. Well, I would say it has to be the right ghost because, like the dead romantics, not fully ghost but kind of ghost that worked. I would say ghosts are maybe a little dead, but everybody, I think would be game for the right ghost story. So slightly undead, you're like Sarah, that's not how this game works um dark academia oh, alive.

Speaker 3 55:55

Dark academia is alive dystopian dystopian. I would say dystopian is not the hottest, like it might be a little dead, but I feel like it's it's, it's primed for a comeback, particularly with new hunger games, books coming out, the movies, the world today. So I would say dystopian. I have not been like, ooh, I'm selling this dystopian story. So I think it's a little dead, but, um, it doesn't mean that it's not poised for a comeback, so, but I would love that in the grave right now.

Speaker 2 56:41

Love that, love that. So if you had the perfect assistant and you were open right now, today, what would you be looking for?

Speaker 3 56:48

by the perfect assistant, I would say.

Speaker 3 56:51

I want somebody who's a reader first, who reads all the things that I work on and who are amazing, uh, who reads and like, who knows my list or would be up for getting to know my list, or knows things of those same genres.

Speaker 3 57:07

I would want somebody who is more organized than me, who can help me keep my life together, and somebody who has really great writing skills, because I think the one thing that I would love to do and you know that editorial eyes because I would love to do, and you know that editorial eyes because I would love to be able to I'm always going to read my clients work, but sometimes, um, like there is time where, like a first pass to like kind of clean things up or bring things to my attention ahead of time, just to help me speed things along, would be really lovely. Um, so, yeah, those are the things, and then I'm sure there's a list that it's somewhere, like actually, sarah, you need them to do this, but I'm like I don't know, I don't know my calendars from day to day, like I don't know that I feel good.

Speaker 2 57:56

Love that, love that. Where can people connect with you on social media?

Crab Chat Chronicles Wrap-Up

Speaker 3 58:00

So I mean, the only place that's currently open on social media is our Nyla Twitter and then my personal Twitter Instagram is private and I try to keep it not work related. Like today I had a little story that was like I left my glasses at home, so I'm going to be squinting all through work today and I don't think anybody wants to know that, apart from my family, to be like, lol, sarah, the worst, but I would say the Nyla Instagram. You know there's something there, but like, at the same time, like I'm not open to queries, so you know, it's just a matter of like, what are people actually going to be thinking about?

Speaker 2 58:43

okay and you have no um, you don't know exactly when you'll be open yet because, like I can't put like a tentative of like january next year you can say sarah hopes to open in 2025, but I can't make it okay, okay we'll say sarah hopes, yeah, it's always thank you so much it been awesome. It has really been awesome, very informative, yeah, and I appreciate your time Awesome.

Speaker 3 59:11

Thank you so much and I hope you have a great afternoon.

Speaker 2 59:14

Thank you, you too, I appreciate it again. Bye, bye, good to meet you.

Speaker 4 59:21

That wraps up today's crab chat chronicles with JD. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.