Season 3 Episode 7: Pitch, Write, Sell: Jordan Taylor’s Blueprint for Book Proposals That Work

Award-winning author Jordan Taylor takes us on a thrilling journey from her days as a tech reporter to becoming a best-selling novelist. Learn how her witty reality TV show recaps caught the eye of literary agent Danielle Burby, setting her on the path to writing her debut novel. Jordan shares the intriguing inspiration behind her latest thriller, "Wicked Darlings," drawn from her experiences with Manhattan's elite, while juggling her role as Executive Editor at Men's Health magazine. Her unique insights into the literary world offer aspiring writers a treasure trove of advice on crafting compelling proposals and understanding market dynamics.

Discover the inner workings of the author-agent relationship and Jordan's approach to pitching and developing book ideas. From brief pitches to writing sample chapters, she highlights the steps in transforming an idea into a proposal that sells. With personal anecdotes and industry insights, Jordan underscores the importance of reading widely within your genre and the value of perseverance in the writing journey. Her strategies for writing and publishing are likened to a workout routine, emphasizing the need for balance, taking breaks, and squeezing in writing time despite a hectic schedule.

As our conversation unfolds, Jordan reflects on the challenges of launching books during the COVID-19 lockdown and the creative ways she connected with readers. She delves into the art of writing captivating opening pages, weaving complex characters, and ensuring endings that resonate with readers. Highlighting her commitment to inclusivity, Jordan passionately discusses her efforts to address book banning and advocate for LGBTQ representation in literature. This episode offers a heartfelt and inspiring exploration of storytelling, with a focus on leaving a positive impact through engaging narratives and inclusive tales.

https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener-affiliate.html?fpr=craftchat

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmayalcom. That's jdmayalcom.

Speaker 2 0:39

In season three, episode seven of Craft Chat Chronicles, we talked to award-winning author Jordan Taylor. Jordan talks about her publishing journey, writing craft and she talks about book bands. She has some great insights and some wonderful advice and her journey is very entertaining. So I hope you enjoy chatting with us. That's season three, episode seven of Craft Chat Chronicles. Let's get chatty. Tell me a little bit about your life before books.

Speaker 3 1:18

Before books, I don't know, like before I was writing books or reading books. Okay, before I was writing books, um, I was working at my first job out of journalism school as a reporter at the New York Observer, and I was a tech reporter there and, um, on the side I was recapping the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, because I've always just personally really loved reality TV, and the recaps that I was writing for those shows started to get some attention online. And that was actually what made my agent reach out to me and ask if I would ever be interested in writing a book, because she liked my voice and she thought the recaps that I was writing were funny. And writing a book had always been a dream of mine ever since I was little. But I had been so focused on finding like a full time job after college that I didn't, and I didn't know anything about the publishing industry, so I hadn't even considered it. But when she reached out, it was like a sign from the universe that it was finally time to explore that.

Speaker 3 2:30

So, yes, my life before writing books was working at a local newspaper in New York City and after my agent reached out to me, I basically started down this dual career path of working full-time as a journalist and as an author. And who was your agent? It's actually Danielle Burby, and I was looking at some of the interviews you had done before, and you interviewed her in 2018. Oh, how cool. Yeah. So she started her own agency, madwoman Literary Agency, and she's fantastic.

Speaker 2 3:07

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Tell me the story about behind the story. Tell me how your current novel came to be. What was the inspiration for it.

Speaker 3 3:17

So my next novel, wicked Darlings, comes out in February and it was actually inspired by that job I had at the New York Observer. This is a story that I feel like has been kind of simmering in some way inside of me for a long time. So I mentioned that I was reporting on technology when I was there, but that was once I had gotten hired as a full-time reporter. Before I got hired for that full-time job, I interned for the paper while I was still in grad school and as an intern I was covering all kinds of local news events, and some of those events were like society events. So, as a, I was probably 21 or 22.

Speaker 3 4:02

Um, so it was like a fairly young woman, new to New York city. Um, I was sent to cover this world that I couldn't have even imagined existing until I saw it. Um, it was like a level of wealth and glamor that I just I couldn't, I couldn't have even imagined, and it was so. It was mind blowing, as you know, yeah, as a young, as a young person, um, new to the city, just to see these things, and I could sense that it was super alluring. But there was also a danger lurking beneath that glittering, glamorous surface sort of a world where you know it's easy for people to get away for things. You know, when you reach a certain level of wealth and power, you almost have the power to manipulate reality.

Speaker 3 4:58

And so, anyway, that experience really stuck with me, and so I was thinking about what I wanted to write my next thriller about and I really enjoy writing thrillers that also offer some kind of social commentary and so I thought about my experience as a reporter in New York City and I thought about the class divide that I witnessed and the power structures you know in Manhattan and just sort of that, that world of the Manhattan elite and I thought that could be a really great setting for a thriller. So all that is to say in my next book. It's called Wicked Darlings and it's about an aspiring journalist. She's 18 years old and she infiltrates the world of the Manhattan elite in order to find out the truth about her sister's death, which occurred the summer previously, at the end of the sister's prestigious journalism internship. So it's, I hope, very gripping. You know, an exciting read, but also potentially thought-provoking.

Speaker 2 6:14

I love that. Was this novel harder or easier than the first?

Speaker 3 6:22

So this is my fourth novel, but I would say that this was probably the hardest one that I've ever had to write, and I think it's because part of it is because, logistically, I was working. I was still working my full time job. At that point I was executive editor at Men's Health magazine, so I was doing my magazine editing job by day, writing novels on the side and just the way that my book projects worked out. I was on deadline for Wicked Darlings and my next YA historical, the Rebel Girls of Rome, within the same like eight month span, and so I was working a full-time job and writing two novels back to back.

Speaker 3 7:08

Wicked Darlings was the first of the two novels that I was writing back to back, so already I'm trying to write this novel in like three and a half months on top of my full-time job, while also knowing in my head that as soon as I finish writing this book, I have to start work on a historical immediately. And so I think just knowing the mountain of work that was ahead of me made it just really hard to get through this book, and I think also because so that's like that's one reason that it was it was difficult sort of from like a logistical standpoint, one reason that it was difficult sort of from like a logistical standpoint, and then, I think, from an emotional standpoint, writing this book brought me back to a time in my life when I was really vulnerable and naive, and so unpacking that and sort of like reliving some of that through the main character, noah, it made me feel things that I hadn't, that I haven't really felt in a while, and so I think maybe it was challenging also from that standpoint.

Speaker 2 8:12

What's harder to write, contemporary or historical?

Speaker 3 8:16

I ooh, hmm. So I really enjoy the research that goes into historical fiction. I was a history major in college and it's also one of the reasons I love journalism. Like I really enjoy the research that goes into historical fiction. I was a history major in college and it's also one of the reasons I love journalism. Like I really love researching, so I don't find that research super hard, even though it's really time consuming.

Speaker 3 8:37

In some ways I actually find historical easier because there are sort of, like you know, strict facts that you have to adhere to get away with something, because there were no cameras and there were no cell phones and right. So. So in some ways, like, the rules of the historical period make crafting the story a little bit easier, whereas in contemporary it sometimes feels like because our world has like opened up in so many ways, like whether it's like technology or travel or what have you it's like there's so many more possible avenues for a story to go, and so that can be overwhelming. Um, so I don't know. I guess that's one difference, but at the end of the day, I'm using the same um plot construction tools regardless in both genres, so they have a lot of similarities too. What?

Speaker 2 9:50

plot construction tools do you use?

Speaker 3 9:53

So I actually recently discovered one that I love, which is the 27 chapter outline. I'm a big plotter, I love to think of stories in acts. I'm a big plotter, I love to think of stories in acts, and so up until I discovered this, the 27 chapter one, I was kind of using one that I like invented in my head that made a lot of sense to me. It was a four act structure where the inciting incident happens in the first act. The second act, like the ball is rolling, the tension, the, the tension is rising, um, and then it plummets by the end of the second act and you're in that dark night of the soul moment. And then, by the end of the third act, you hit your climax. And then the fourth act is all of that like resolution, wrapping things up but like maybe throwing in a few last twists. So that four X structure was what I had been using in my head.

Speaker 3 10:41

Um, but then a fellow writer of mine actually somebody else, lisa Springer, who is another client of Danielle's. She wrote the YA novel there's no Way I'd Die. First, she told me about this 27 chapter outline that breaks down a story into three acts and each of those acts is broken down into three sections, and then each of those sections is broken down into three chapters. And so if you're somebody like me who really, really likes to be able to see the roadmap of a story from start to finish, that 27 chapter outline is really helpful. Love that.

Speaker 2 11:23

Love that, love that, love that, love that, love that. What were the biggest surprises and challenges that you've experienced in the publishing industry so far?

Speaker 3 11:34

oh my, in the in the publishing industry, like as a whole, um, I mean, I think this challenge is not going to be particularly unique, but but it's definitely rejection, even when you think that, even when you've written, you know one or two books with a publishing house and you love them and you think it's been going great, that publishing house might not buy your next book. But I think, on the flip side, like that setback can also end up being a wonderful surprise, because that rejection becomes an opportunity to look at what you're pitching, figure out how you can make it stronger and realize that there still are other avenues for you to explore. Once you get, you know, a rejection, that feels really painful and world ending, um, to know that there still are. There still are options for you, um, you know I took my, my thrillers over to Delacorte, um, because they weren't a fit for the publishing house that I had been working on with my historicals, which you know it makes sense, um, and they I ended up finding a really good home for them.

Speaker 3 12:44

So I never would have imagined that happening and, again, I never would. I guess I can't really talk about what my next project is yet, but I also would never have imagined the next thing happening as well. So, yeah, I think like the rejection is the biggest challenge, but the best surprises are what you do with that rejection and how that rejection can actually turn into something really wonderful.

Speaker 2 14:14

Okay, what is your author agent relationship look like? Do you bring her a completed manuscript? Do you send her proposals? Do you approach her with a list of ideas? How do you guys decide what your next thing is going to be?

Speaker 3 14:29

So I usually send her. The first thing I do is I send her like a literally could be a paragraph, like I think, about Wicked Darlings. I remember I sort of had the idea cooking around in my head and I went to sleep and I woke up the next morning and like, feverishly, typed out like three sentences to Danielle, pitching it as Sadie meets Gossip Girl, and she loved the idea and actually we ended up. We ended up selling Wicked Darlings on through basically that three sentence email. Um, but that is not typical. Usually.

Speaker 3 15:09

Usually what we do is I'll send her that you know little paragraph or something, she'll give me the sign off and then what I like to do is write one or two sample chapters, like before I, before I take my time on a full manuscript, I like to have her see a much smaller section of the book to make sure that I'm on the right path, because I I guess I'm really efficiency minded and maybe this comes from all my years of working essentially two full-time jobs at the same time.

Speaker 3 15:39

I always want to make sure that I'm not wasting my time. So, yeah, I like to show her a sample chapter and get her take on the plot and also on like the main character's voice, and then, once I get her sign off, usually we'll go back and forth a few times like revising that sample chapter, and once we're both really feeling it, that's when I will um, that's when I will write more. But I've been lucky enough that I've sold, um, my, all of my young adult novels on proposals. So we actually haven't gotten to the point where I've written a full manuscript and then sent that to her and then sold that. But anyway, usually what we do is, yeah, I'll send her the quick email, I'll write her a sample chapter and then I'll write a little more based on whatever the pitch is going to look like that we're going to send in.

Speaker 2 16:39

Love that, love that and honestly, selling a proposal makes the most sense because you don't want to do a whole manuscript. And then what if it doesn't sell?

Speaker 3 16:45

you could have put that yeah, I mean, the reality is that that is how many, many authors sell their work, and I really admire the ability to write a full book not knowing if it is going to sell, and that takes so much guts, it takes so much commitment. Um, so I, like I have so much respect for that process, but, yes, it also is nice, on the other hand, to know that you are going to be paid for the work that you do.

Speaker 3 17:14

What does the proposal look like so I can tell you about the proposal that we just sent in for the project that I can't really talk too much about, I think I can still tell you that it was. It was 100 pages of the book, a synopsis, so basically like around 2000 words fully describing the story from start to finish. And then we also included like a fun pitch deck. And we also included like a fun pitch deck, which is basically a slideshow of photos and character descriptions and comps, things to just really show like what the story is all about and get the publishing teams really excited about what they're going to get if they buy this book.

Speaker 2 18:00

Love that, love that, love that book. Love that, love that, love that. What advice do you have for aspiring authors and debut?

Writing Strategies and Publishing Insights

Speaker 3 18:10

novelists who are just beginning this journey, I would say read constantly. I personally have not taken like a formal creative writing class since high school. I was a history and theater major in college, and so so much of what I've learned about writing has come through reading fiction myself, and especially read books in the genre that you hope to write, because that's how you're going to pick up on the conventions that authors use again and again. It's how you're going to get a sense of what's selling in the market. Like you know, I don't want to sound like you know, like shark, like business person over here, but it is important to know you know what, what is selling. Because, as for me personally as a writer, my hope is to reach as many readers as possible. You know my, especially with my young adult novels. They really, I think, like include messages of, of hope and can can help teen readers figure out, you know, what kind of role they want to play in the world and how to make the world a better place. So my goal is to get my book out to as many readers as possible, and that means understanding the market. So, um, so yes, the my biggest recommendation is to read constantly. Um, and then I would also say just keep going.

Speaker 3 19:34

Um, most people quit things and um, it's especially really really easy when you're writing, if you feel like you've hit a wall, just to stop entirely. But when I feel really stuck, sometimes I'll switch from writing on my laptop to writing by hand. I feel like the words sometimes flow differently when I'm writing by pen than if I'm typing. Sometimes I just step away from writing entirely. I'll even just go take a shower and sometimes I'll just be in there and ideas will click into place. You know, it's sort of like writing is sort of like working out, where, in order to perform your best, you need to take time off and let your muscles recover. Like your writing brain is kind of the same. Sometimes you need to step away to let your brain recover and take space. That's something that I've learned since leaving my job earlier this year to um, devote myself to my writing career full time is that I finally let my brain take some space. Um, and it's been really, really helpful. I think it's improved my writing, so, um, so, yeah, keep at it. And also like, even if you think your schedule is so busy and you have no time to write, like find three minutes and it doesn't even have to be at your computer, it can be in the notes app on your phone.

Speaker 3 20:50

Like I used to write like back when I was, you know, working full time in journalism and writing at all other hours of the day. I would. I would write on the Microsoft word app on my phone on the subway while I was going into work. I would like write while I was sitting on the Microsoft Word app on my phone on the subway while I was going into work. I would like write while I was sitting on the toilet Sorry if that's TMI. I would write like while I was waiting in line at like coffee shops, like really in any in any like two minute long break. I would write and you'll be amazed by what you can do. I remember realizing that just in my time commuting I was getting done like maybe 500 words a day just by writing on my commute. So look for those little spaces in your day where you can fit in writing, even if it's just a few sentences.

Speaker 2 21:39

I love that. I love that. What do you wish you knew about publishing when you were just getting started?

Speaker 3 21:47

I didn't know anything about publishing.

Speaker 2 21:49

I was just getting started.

Speaker 3 21:51

I was so, you know, coming out of coming out of college. I'm Canadian, so I needed, I was really focused on finding employment, securing a work visa so that I could stay here and pursue my career, and so I just I had it. I did not have, like the mental bandwidth to think about this passion that I had for fiction, so I truly didn't know anything. So let me think about what I wish I knew, besides literally everything. Hmm, I really want to give you like a specific answer.

Speaker 3 22:33

I think I had no idea how long it takes for a book to come out, and I think people are always really surprised to learn that, from the moment you get an offer on a book, it could be two years before that book comes out. So Wicked Darlings, which comes out in February of 2025, I got the offer for that book in 2023. And so I guess I wasn't prepared for how long you really live with a manuscript. I was so used to my journalism career where I could be, you know, writing and publishing three stories in a day, and so you know you, of course, want your stories to be extremely high quality, but sometimes, if one of them isn't like absolutely perfect, you can live with it because you know you're going to move on to the next thing so quickly. And so I really wasn't prepared for how deep I was going to get with my work as an author. And I really love it because it creates room for you to like.

Speaker 3 23:45

By the time one of my books comes out, I am so incredibly proud of every word that's in there. But I was not prepared for how much pressure that can also be to know that you have one and a half to two years to to craft this thing. There's something almost more comforting about having maybe like an hour to turn around an article and get it live online right. All of a sudden it's like cause, you know there's only so much you can do in an hour to make that article great, but when you know that you have this much time, it's both an amazing opportunity but a lot of pressure. So I don't think I was quite prepared for that.

Speaker 3 24:27

Yeah, how many revisions did your current novel take? Um, wicked Darlings, I want to say, had one big structural edit where I basically rewrote the entire book, um, and then from there probably had one or two more rounds of smaller line edits. I was just gonna say that's not including um copy edits which come after um. But in terms of the edits that I had with my editor, um it was probably. It was like one really big one and then two smaller rounds of line edits.

Speaker 2 25:09

Now is your agent editorial. Did you guys go through?

Speaker 3 25:14

wicked darlings a couple of times before. No, we actually didn't, because I sold it on proposal. The first draft. I shared it with my agent, but I'm pretty sure I shared it with her at the same time as I shared it with my, with my editor. So so she read it, so she of course like knows what's happening and so she can help me work through the feedback that I got from my editor, but I did not go through a round of edits with her, okay.

Speaker 2 25:46

And what advice would you offer to authors of historical fiction? Or well, we'll do historical fiction first and then I'm curious about young adults okay.

Speaker 3 25:58

So I, of course, would share the same advice, which is like read a ton in the genre that you want to write, um, and then. So, when you're researching historical fiction, it can, of course, be really helpful to travel to the place that you are writing about, um, but that's not always easy to do. So. One thing that has been so helpful for me when I'm writing about books that take place in a different time period, um, or a different part of the world, is google maps street View. Okay, wait, this is not good advice for historical fiction. I guess this is good advice for any book taking place in a place that you haven't been before. But in my particular experience, two of my historicals they take place in Paris and Rome, and I spent a lot of time clicking through the streets on Google Maps Street View and really getting a sense for my character's experience of walking through the world and like exactly what they would see from. You know what materials buildings were made of to. You know what kinds of things would be in store windows. But you're right, that's good advice, no matter what kind of book you're writing, I think, for historical stuff. That's good advice, no matter what kind of book you're writing, I think for historical stuff, um, I tend to order a mix of primary and secondary historical documents and knowing the difference between those and the value of both of them is really important.

Speaker 3 27:19

So primary documents are, um, documents that were written by people who are really experiencing those things at the time. So like a diary is a great example of a primary historical document. And then a secondary historical document is a piece of literature or a film or whatever some kind of document that has been written by a historian about that time period. And so what's great about secondary historical documents is that you know, historians can provide analysis that people living firsthand through the events might not have had the perspective to offer. And historians, you know, writing these secondary documents have also done like a lot of the great work for us researchers of gathering a lot of primary historical documents and kind of putting them all in one book or one documentary.

Speaker 3 28:10

But then the value of a primary historical document is that it can really help you get into the mind of a character who is living through a particular time in history. So you know, it was really when I was writing my debut novel, the Paper Girl of Paris, I read diaries of teenage girls who lived through the Nazi occupation of Paris in World War II and because it was just impossible for me to imagine. There are things that we now, looking back think we would have done at the time. But reading those diaries and really getting into the mindset of people who believed that the war could, or the occupation could potentially last forever for their entire lifetimes was really helpful and eye-opening for me so that I could really craft like vivid, believable, nuanced characters.

Speaker 2 29:05

Love that, love that you mentioned Google Maps. Are there any other tools or resources that helped you in the writing or the marketing or the or any process in your writing?

Speaker 3 29:15

um, this is such a small one, but it just came to mind, um, when I was, uh, writing the rebel girls of Rome, which is my historical that comes out next July and it's a companion novel to the paper girl with Paris. Um, it takes place in Rome, and I found a I guess I think it was, on Wikipedia. It was an Italian onomatopoeia like dictionary, you know, because there were little things that I was saying and I think the one that stands out in my head, I think my characters were making coffee and I had written like the like drip, drip, drip of the coffee, but a coffee editor suggested I look up what the Italian, because Italians don't say drip, drip, drip, they would actually say, um, it was like plin, plin, plin, and so I, this onomatopoeia dictionary, like, just added this level of specificity and, and I hope, authenticity to the writing. It was really cool. And then I've also been surprised by how, how, how much amazing stuff I can find in like, like city archives. I was, I haven't done anything with this idea yet, but I have an idea for a historical novel that takes place in Amsterdam and I was just looking through literally the Amsterdam city archives and there are so many historical photos in there that can just help you bring settings to life. I mean, and you don't even have to go through a city archive. It's fairly easy if you're doing like just research online to find photos from the past. Like that can really help you bring your descriptions to life.

Speaker 3 30:52

The New York Times also has a really great archive and you can go back and, you know, read New York Times issues from. It might be something only available to subscribers, but I used it a lot when I was writing my second novel, which is also historical. It's called Don't Breathe a Word. It jumps back and forth in time between the present and 1962, like Cold War paranoia era, and I was really curious about, like realistically, how much would students in 1962 be aware of like certain news stories happening around the world? And I could literally go back and look at issues of the New York Times from that period and have a sense of what high schoolers in America might have known about like what was happening in the Cold War. You know military escalations happening all over the world. So that archive was really really interesting. Um, I think those yeah, those are some of the big ones that I've used love that, love that I'm off topic because I'm curious um and then.

Navigating Book Launches During Lockdown

Speaker 3 32:02

So from Canada, new York, that's a pretty big transition yeah it, um, I guess it started when in high school, um, I was thinking about, like, where I wanted to go to college and, um, we don't in Canada, like we don't really have like the small liberal arts schools that are more popular here in the states. I mean, we maybe have a few, but, um, but not, not, it's not the same culture, um, as it is here. And my mom, who's dual Canadian American, she knew about, like she just thought that these liberal arts schools in the States could be a good fit for me, cause I was such a like creative thinker and wanted to try so many different things. Um, I wasn't like really dead set on one particular thing, so she thought they would be a good fit for me.

Speaker 3 32:52

So we toured some college campuses in the Northeast and I ended up going to Hamilton College and then, when I was there, I made so many friends and I got to travel to New York City and really get a sense of how amazing the city is and also how great the job market was here. And so I ended up, you know, moving to New York City after school and I did my master's in journalism at NYU and I just decided to stay here and now, like my, toronto is yes, it's in another country, but it's only like an hour and a half plane ride, so it is very easy to get back and forth. And my brother lives here now too, so yeah, Were you there during COVID.

Speaker 3 33:36

No, I was here. So my husband is here and he works for the city, so we were here during all of COVID.

Speaker 2 33:47

So it looks very dystopian at that time. The pictures I've seen it was incredibly dystopian.

Speaker 3 33:52

Um, yeah, it was, it was really intense. Um, and my first, my first two books, both came out during lockdown, and so I uh didn't get to celebrate a book in person until my third book, which came out last November, and that was like the most exciting thing. Um, cause it was, yeah, it was, it was, it was just bleak. I mean, I was just literally in this room for, you know, basically two years.

Speaker 2 34:20

What was it like launching a book during lockdown?

Speaker 3 34:23

Um, so my book came out in May of 2020. Um, so I did have an in-person event planned and just you know, or I had a few and they just got canceled. So we ended up like scrambling to organize a virtual event and, um, it actually ended up working, working out really well. Um, it was. I mean, it felt like we were just doing the best we could in a really horrible situation, and so there was something kind of bonding about that experience. But I also remember like it was really hard.

Speaker 3 34:57

I remember when my after I, after my first book came out, I told myself, like, well, at least I'll get to celebrate the next one with my family. And then my next book came out in May of 2021. So we were still in lockdown and at that point, like I, you know, I hadn't been home, like the borders were closed, so I hadn't seen my family in so long. And so I remember, on my second virtual book launch, just literally like breaking down and sobbing because, um, I just like, literally like I hadn't hugged my parents since my first book came out, and now we're on my second and I still haven't hugged them like it was. That was that was really sad, um, but I got to go home and do an in-person Toronto book launch for Revenge Game, my third book, and that was like so special.

Speaker 3 35:51

That was like all it was like the past two books before that also kind of got to be celebrated that night. It was amazing. It was actually like one of the best nights of my life. It was so beautiful.

Speaker 2 36:04

That's awesome. The one beautiful thing in the horrible, horrible, awful tragedy that was COVID is that I think humanity in a way is bonded as the survivors because everybody has a COVID story. You know what I mean. Like I've talked to librarians who talk about what it was like taking books outside because they couldn't people couldn't come in the library but they would do car side. You know what I mean. Like drive up, up, you can bring them out to the cars to deliver books and stuff where were you during COVID?

Speaker 2 36:32

it was in Pennsylvania at the time and um. I, I worked through COVID, I think I worked the whole time and, um, you know, didn't get it till like the end of COVID. I went the whole two years and then, the end of COVID, got sick and I got every, everything, every symptom on the thing, like I even had a rash.

Speaker 3 36:52

I didn't even know they had a COVID rash.

Speaker 2 36:53

Oh my god, that's terrible wow yeah, but we survived it. Yay, and prayers to those that lost somebody is this terrible, terrible time. Let's talk about craft for a bit. What elements do you believe are essential to hooking readers and crafting a good first page?

Speaker 3 37:14

A good first page. I definitely think it's launching into a scene right away, like make somebody feel immediately like they are part of the action. I want to open a book and just immediately feel like I really am hooked on whatever is going on, and I also want to get a really good sense of what the protagonist's point of view is. So I don't just want to get hooked on the particular bit of action that's happening. I want to get hooked on the character that's going to guide me through this action.

Speaker 2 37:54

Love that, love that. What makes a good character, a good protagonist.

Speaker 3 38:00

I really enjoy characters, that kind of occupy, that gray area between good and evil. I think one thing I learned from actually researching my first book, the Paper Girl of Paris, is that you know, it's a book about the French resistance in World War II and so it's easy to think that you know, oh my gosh, if we were alive at that time we would 100% have been part of the resistance. But what I learned from my research is that like like something then, like less than 2% of people in France were part of some kind of organized resistance movement, like the vast, vast majority of people were just like trying to get by and do the best that they possibly could. And it really made me think about how writing really vivid characters means acknowledging and embracing that gray area that really all of us occupy in some way.

Speaker 3 39:06

And I really brought that to my protagonist, noah in Wicked Darlings, who you know we have to love because she's this determined, aspiring journalist who wants to get to, you know, figure out the truth behind her sister's death. But Noah also has like a secret, which is that ever since her sister died she's also felt a little bit relieved because for the first time in her life she's not in her sister's shadow and developing her character really meant embracing that. Two things can be true at the same time, like I think a good character should have a lot of ands Like you can be. Good character should have a lot of ands, like you can be this and this and this, and some of that's going to be good and some of that's going to be bad.

Speaker 2 39:58

But that's real Love, that Love, that Love, that description of Noah too, by the way.

Speaker 3 40:05

Oh thanks.

Crafting Compelling Endings and Inspiring Readers

Speaker 2 40:07

I personally I love villains, like I was way more into Lestat than Louis. What makes a good villain in your eyes?

Speaker 3 40:15

Well, I think it's the same thing, Like. I think it's that the nuance right, Like, because a villain doesn't feel as believable to me if they are just so so, so evil. I think a villain is so much more compelling if there is some shred of humanity that we, as a reader, can relate to and maybe even see how the villain came to be the way they are. So I think it's really important to think about your villain's backstory the same way as you think about your protagonist's backstory, because the reader should on some level be able to relate to the villain. Otherwise I think it can just come off as kind of cartoonish.

Speaker 2 41:04

Love that Many writers struggle with the middle of the novel. How do you avoid the soggy middle and keep the reader engagement all throughout the book?

Speaker 3 41:15

Well, okay. So I think for me, aggressively plotting the entire story helps with that a lot, because I know that in order for my climax of the book to be this explosive, exciting moment, I need that low point to happen. It's like balancing a chemical equation, almost. So I guess I don't think of it as like a big, soggy middle, but rather like a series of beats, and each one of them is this really important building block that leads to the next thing. That's taking the character or taking the reader on a journey. So I yeah, I don't think of it as being soggy, I think of it as I'm. I'm, yeah, that balance.

Speaker 3 42:00

I'm trying to think of a better metaphor than balancing an equation. Maybe it's like well, I often think of writing as like building a house, and so, I don't know, I guess the middle it's just like building the next floor that's going to support this really awesome attic addition that I'm putting on, to make sure that each beat takes my character exactly where they need to go, making sure that each beat feels so intentional and not just feeling like I have to rate the middle, because it's the middle and I, you know, we need something connecting the beginning to the end. It's really making sure that each of those beats is so intentional to hold up the entire beautiful house. That is your story.

Speaker 2 42:47

Love that, love that. And how do you craft a compelling ending?

Speaker 3 42:53

Often I find that my ending kind of writes itself. If I have built the rest of the beats in the story correctly, the ending should reveal itself, and usually I have some choice if I want to make the ending a hopeful, happy ending or a sad, um, or kind of a murky ending. But overall, in terms of what happens to the characters, um, there really should be kind of like one way that it's going to end up. It's like it's almost like you built I keep using these analogies, my therapist tells me I'm very creative it's like it's like you built this factory assembly line and by the time your character has made it through this entire like conveyor belt, it can really only end in one way. Um, because I decide from the beginning of the story what the overarching message is going to be, and so I know, um, you know writing Wicked Darlings, um, I knew that I wanted to write a story about accepting that we are all full of multitudes and that multiple things can be true at the same time, and so that helped point me in the direction of exactly how this story needed to end. And when I think about, you know, my first book, the Paper Girl of Paris, I knew that was going to be a story about the importance of standing up for what's right even when it's hard to do, and so I did.

Speaker 3 44:37

I had a sense, based on what I knew the thesis of the book was going to be, that there was really only one way the story could end, and, of course, I think about ways to make that ending as satisfying as possible. I like to have you know a lot of loose ends come together in really surprising and satisfying ways, while still leaving a few others not together, while still leaving a few questions unanswered, which, like, lets the reader continue thinking about the book after it's done. But all of this is to say, I think the way that I crafted ending is by deciding from the start what I want the overarching message of the book to be, and so that's like. There's like the external plot that's happening, like the sort of physical journey a character is going on. Then there's the internal journey that a character is going on and then, like, even deeper below that, there's what I think of as the spine of the book and that's the message that I want to leave readers with and that always helps inform my ending.

Speaker 2 45:41

I love that.

Speaker 3 45:43

That was a really long, rambling way to get to my actual point, which is figure out the spine.

Speaker 2 45:50

Reflecting on your journey and all the novels you've written. What would you like readers to take away from your body of work?

Speaker 3 46:04

I think in all of my books so far have been young adult novels and, you know, I think about the books that I read when I was a teenager that really inspired me, and I think about how those books, you know, helped me shape the kind of person that I wanted to be in the world. The kind of person that I wanted to be in the world and made me feel so passionately about, you know, really wanting to make a difference and make the world better. And so I hope that what people get from my body of work is is a really gripping and exciting story. I want people to enjoy reading my books, but I also hope, on a deeper level, that my books also inspire them to do the right thing for their communities and for themselves.

Speaker 2 46:56

Love that, love that. I'm wondering. There's a lot of book banning and stuff going on in the States. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, and is that a thing in Canada or no?

Speaker 3 47:08

No, I should be better versed on what the status of book banning is in Canada. But I will say, you know, as an author who now has been living in the States for almost 20 years now, which is so wild, I mean I just it really, really, really upsets me. I think literature is so important for people to community sorry, lgbtq community when I was there.

Speaker 3 47:52

I mean I didn't have as much access to it simply because there weren't as many books about queer people when I was growing up in the 90s and early 2000s. But now when I think about the fact that kids might not have access to those books because they've been banned and and that could be potentially life-saving, information Like that makes me so sick, and so you know, I am trying to write books that are as queer as possible. Noah in Wicked Darlings is openly bisexual and my book, the Rebel Girls of Rome, is the queerest book that I've ever written. It is about. It's about queer Jewish teens and the Italian resistance in World War II.

Speaker 3 48:35

I just think that you know there are so many. There are so many questions, but because our society stigmatizes, like so many aspects of people's identities, um, and puts these barriers on us, like achieving pleasure and love, um, and just like the right to live, um, because we put these so much stigma on so many of these things, it can be um impossible for people to ask really important questions to their friends or their family, and sometimes books are like the only place people have left to go to get answers to some of these questions and like, why are we taking that away? Yeah, sorry, I this maybe was not the most like coherent answer, because I feel very strongly about this, and I just made the best answer, though, because the passion.

Speaker 3 49:25

Yeah, yes, Like I think about the life-changing power of books and it just makes me sad to think that we are denying people access to transformative information love that, love that what are you working on next? So this is the project that I can't um tell you about, but hopefully I can talk about it very soon.

Speaker 2 49:48

Give us a hint, a time period, something.

Speaker 3 49:51

Yeah, it is contemporary, it's very different than anything that I've done before, and it's something that I never would have had the space to explore if I hadn't decided to leave my full-time job in journalism earlier this year. I decided that in leaving my job, I wanted to try something that I had always been thinking about, always dreamed of doing, but never had the bandwidth to do so. It's really just completely different. Memoir, what's that?

Speaker 2 50:22

Memoir no, it's fiction, it's fiction.

Speaker 3 50:28

So I guess that's all I'll say for now.

Speaker 2 50:35

How can readers connect with you and where can they find updates about your work?

Speaker 3 50:40

So my website is JordanHTaylorcom and Jordan H Taylor is also my handle on Instagram and Jordan H Taylor is also my handle on Instagram and if you go on my website or go on my Instagram, you can see a link to sign up for my newsletter, and so that is how you can stay up to date on all things happening with my books. And I also like to share fun like historical tidbits in my newsletter and like fun, fun literary travel recommendations, so check that out too some awesome, any closing thoughts or information you want to share that we didn't cover?

Speaker 3 51:16

um, no, nothing else. I I just hope everyone enjoys, uh, my two books that are coming out next year wicked darlings and the rebel girls of rome and I'm just so grateful to everybody who, um, who picked them up and gives them a read. Awesome, excited to check them out. I really appreciated this. This is a great conversation.

Speaker 2 51:36

Thank you, it really was Um. My book comes out um in 2026, my debut, so all my debut questions were totally self-serving.

Speaker 3 51:49

Well, follow up up if you have any other questions. Like having gone through myself, I like I feel you sorry. What's?

Speaker 2 51:55

it called hearts gambit. Don't get shocked if you get a instagram dm with me asking you something, okay all right, cool, check it out.

Speaker 3 52:03

Well, congratulations, that's amazing. Okay, so you know this, like how long it takes between, like you know, starting and like the book finally coming out, and you have a million people being like is your book out yet? Is your book out yet? It's like, no, not until 2026.

Speaker 2 52:18

Exactly. And then, like it was like, even like almost eight months before I got the check after the initial agreement.

Speaker 3 52:24

Yes, oh my gosh. I know I'm in that period right now with the mystery project, where it's like I'm waiting and waiting, and waiting yeah, yeah and then the family?

Speaker 2 52:35

they don't. You know, family doesn't understand the ins and outs of program of publishing, so they don't get that. It takes so long. So like when is this book ever gonna do anything right?

Speaker 3 52:43

I know, I know but then just wait, it'll come out and then they'll start asking you so how are the sales, how are the sales? And you'll be like shut up. Oh well, good luck, um, and yeah, please stay in touch and just thank you so much for this opportunity thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 53:03

You have a great day you too that wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with jd mayor. Thanks for joining us. If you like the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayocom. While you're there, join jd's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.