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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
Season 2 Episode 11: The Agent Behind the Hits: Suzie Townsend on Creating Bestsellers!
Ever wondered what it takes to transition from a high school English teacher to a vice president at a top literary agency? Susie Townsend shares her compelling story of uncertainty, bold moves, and serendipitous opportunities that led her to New Leaf Literary and Media. You'll uncover her insights on the publishing industry's inner workings, from managing a plethora of author projects to navigating unexpected crises. If you're curious about the rise of "romantasy" in YA fiction or the daily hustle of a literary agent, this conversation is a goldmine of information.
Join us as we explore the dynamic world of literary agenting with Susie Townsend. She offers a rare peek into her daily responsibilities, juggling hundreds of emails, endless meetings, and the ever-evolving demands of authors and publishers. Susie’s perspective on current literary trends and her tips for aspiring writers and agents are invaluable. Learn what she looks for in potential bestsellers and how she ensures authors focus on their writing while she handles the rest.
Finally, we delve into the art of storytelling, from crafting compelling scenes to ensuring satisfying endings. Susie provides expert advice on entering scenes late and exiting early, omitting unnecessary details, and integrating crucial elements to keep readers engaged. We also discuss the intricate dynamics of the author-agent relationship, emphasizing good communication and aligned expectations for a successful partnership. Don’t miss out on Susie’s expert advice and the latest trends shaping the literary landscape.
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener-affiliate.html?fpr=craftchat
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
📸 Instagram
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Watch episodes on YouTube as well.
💜 Level up your writing process with Scrivener ...
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmyallcom. That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2:In season two, episode 11 of Craft Chat Chronicles, we're going to talk to Susie Townsend. Susie Townsend has been at the top of the literary agent landscape for 15 years. She's sold books that have become movies and TV shows. She's negotiated deals for six figures and up and she's going to tell you about her journey into the world of publishing. She's going to give advice on writing and craft and she's going to tell you about the state of the publishing market and what's hot and what she sees selling now. So, without further ado, this is Season 2, episode 11 of Craft Chat Chronicles. Let's get chatty. We're recording, so if you're shy you can turn your camera off. Okay, welcome everybody. I guess we'll go ahead and get started.
Speaker 2:For tonight's Craft Chat we have Susie Townsend. Susie is a highly respected literary agent and vice president at New Leaf Literary and Media. She is very talented at spotting unique voices and she represents some bestselling authors like Cassandra Clare, who's given us Shadowhunters and the Mortal Instruments series, and today she's going to talk about her journey as an agent. And today she's going to talk about her journey as an agent. She's going to talk about the publishing industry and she's going to give you guys some valuable craft and writing tips. So welcome again. Welcome Susie. Yes, no, thank you. First of all, I want to thank you deeply, since we just announced the book. So thank you, thank you, thank you, yes.
Speaker 3:No, of course, Congratulations. I feel like obviously nothing I did would have been possible without you writing the great book.
Speaker 2:So thank you. Can you tell us how you became an agent? Tell us a little bit about your journey?
Speaker 3:Yeah sure, so I I always tell people that I fell into agenting. Sure, so I always tell people that I fell into agenting. It wasn't really a job that I knew anything about. I graduated college with an English degree and was like, oh, what do I do now? And I actually went into teaching. I taught high school English for six years and I really enjoyed it. But I definitely had moments, you know, during faculty meetings, when we were arguing over like whether we should have a water cooler, where I thought this is really what I want to do the rest of my life. And and I used to always tell my students I taught. I had a lot of juniors and so I used to always talk to them about how like, find what do you love to do, find something that will pay you to do that, and like that then will help you pick your career path, and things like that student one time who was like is what?
Speaker 3:you love to do, really interact with teenagers and at that moment I was thinking, no, no, it's not um. And I kind of thought to myself, like I just love to read, like who would pay me to read? Um. And around that same time my sister she's a couple years younger than me and she had gotten a job in textbook publishing and she was working in curriculum, um, in like the social studies sort of like curriculum, putting together textbooks, and she kept telling me about it and I was thinking like, oh, that's so cool, like how, like I like curriculum, like I would like that and um, and so it's sort of like a combination of arrogance and naivety made me decide I'm just going to move to New York City and get into publishing. And I was in California at the time, so I packed up all of my belongings and my animals and drove across the country and got to New York. And drove across the country and got to New York and I thought that I had like saved up enough money to basically like give me maybe like a year of a cushion to be like, oh, I can figure out what I want to do and find the right job, and if I don't, then I can always teach in New York, and it definitely was like three months, like I had not saved enough for a year, but I was lucky because I found I found an internship, um, and it was for a literary agency and I didn't know what that was, um, but I went in for an interview and I wore my pantsuit and I read like five books on their website and was like ready to answer all the questions. And I got there for the interview and the girl who interviewed me was wearing a band t-shirt and jeans and she asked me like four questions. Um, she asked me what I liked to read and if I could read things that needed work and and do edit. And I was like, oh, I was a high school English teacher, I can read anything, and um, and then she's kind of like, okay, when can you start? And I was like tomorrow, um, and within like the first few days, I was like, oh, my gosh, like screw textbooks. Like this is what I want to do, like I could, just, this is a job. Like I can read fiction.
Speaker 3:Um, what I did as an intern was I would read the queries that came in, um, and if I liked the sound of them, I would go to the agent and be like I want to request this and here's what I like about this query. And sometimes they would say to me like, oh, I don't know that I want another mystery novel right now. Like I have a lot of those. And in that case, if they were going to say no, then I would find basically someone else in the office, like another agent, and be like, hey, this agent got this query and doesn't want to see it, but I really think it sounds good. Like could I request it? Like would you look at it if it's good? Um, and when the manuscripts came in that I requested, I would read them and write up notes. Uh, like we called it a reader's report, but I would write up, like you know, a synopsis of what happened and then also like what I felt were the strengths and weaknesses of the manuscript. And I loved it. I was like this is amazing. I can't believe I get to do this.
Speaker 3:And my internship was only like two days a week, but I kept finding excuses to come in every day and read more and like do things and help out every day and read more and like do things and help out. And the head of the company at one point was like you're here every day. And I was like, oh no, I'm going to get in trouble. And he was like I feel like we should pay you. And I was like, oh OK, great, you know, maybe like more money. And so he hired me as an assistant. It's not exactly a well-paying job but it was great. And when he had said to me at one point like, oh well, you know, do you want to become an agent? And at the time I really had no idea what agents did. It just seemed like a lot of like phone calls, but I really liked reading the manuscripts and like finding clients. So I was like baby. And he was like, well, you know, like in a couple of years, after you've assisted for a while, like if you do a good job, then like we can talk about maybe you signing your first couple of clients. I was like, okay, great, um.
Speaker 3:And then a month later, later, he got a query, uh, for a YA paranormal romance. And this was in, uh, 2008, or actually might have been like late 2007, but it was like just post twilight, in that sort of like era of publishing where, like YA was really expanding as a category, um, and paranormal. Ya was like what everyone was looking for. And my boss, I was like I found this query. I it looks really great. I had requested it. Uh, I read the manuscript. I loved it. It was a paranormal romance, it was a love triangle, you know, a normal human girl and then an angel and a demon.
Speaker 3:And I was like it's so funny, it's so good, the voice is so great, like you should sign this. And he was like oh no, I don't, I don't really do YA. And I was like but this will sell. I like I know this will sell. I know teenagers I had to work with them for years this will sell. Um, and he was like, no, it's okay.
Speaker 3:And I like asked everyone else in the office and I kept talking about the book and then the author got an offer of representation from another agent and so I told my boss again. I was like here are all the reasons you should sign this. I know exactly where you should send it, I know exactly what you should do. And he said to me well, if you love this so much, if you want to offer representation, you can. You can be the agent. And I was like okay, now that I've done this for many years, I look back at that and think he probably didn't think she'd sign with me because I was a baby, I was brand new, and I don't think he thought that she would sign with me because she had another offer. But she and I talked and we had a great call and she did sign with me and I went on submission with the project. I did some editing, we went on submission and then I had three editors who offered and so we sold the book at an auction and then my boss was like, oh wow, like you did know what you were talking about. And so he was like, if you want to take on a couple of clients, we can, we can make that work.
Speaker 3:Um, I also look back at that time and think like there was so much I didn't know and there was a lot of like you know, pausing to be like wait, how should I handle this? But I was very fortunate that I had some good agents at the agency who are great mentors and like helped me along the way. But that was sort of like how I became an agent, Um, and now it's 15 years later, ish, um, and I have about like 30, I think it's 31 active clients that I work with Um and there was a time that I tracked like how many books I had sold Um and I've since lost track. But I feel like that's a good problem.
Speaker 2:It is great problem to have. So what does a day in your life look like now?
Speaker 3:Um. So now there's always a lot of emails, um, I get probably about 200 emails a day, um. And then some of them are ones that I am just like a a fly on the wall for it's. You know, my authors are talking to their editors or their publicists or different things like that. Um, I have to read everything because something might come up that I need to weigh in on, but it doesn't always require a response. And then other emails are emails that I definitely have to respond to, if someone is like oh my gosh, I hate my cover. Or if an author is thinking like well, I really want to do this anthology that I got an opportunity for, but will it fit into my schedule? So I definitely answer a lot of emails. I also, at this point in my career, I have a lot of meetings and phone calls, and sometimes those are meetings where I'm meeting with an editor and we're catching up whether we're getting together in person or we're getting together on the phone. But I'll be asking them what books do they have coming out soon that they're excited about, what holes are on their list, what things are they looking for? Um, or I might be meeting with authors to talk them through, like if they don't like their edits or if they're struggling to to, you know, finish something on time. Uh, we might also be meeting to talk about strategy. Um, I also have a lot of calls and meetings about, uh like, marketing and publicity plans for books that are coming out.
Speaker 3:As an agent, I always say, like it's, you know, you start working on a project before before the book deal, you know, and you might edit it, get it ready, and then you know the next step on it is like you might step back a little bit as the author works with their editor, but at the same time, you're always there to sort of troubleshoot any problem and to also like, especially with a first time author, prepare them for, like, what are the next steps? So you know, when it's time to start thinking about a cover, a lot of times the publisher will say like, oh, we're getting ready to do the cover, do you have any ideas? So we'll talk about, like, what their cover brief should look like and what things will be helpful to tell the publisher so that you get a cover that you like and not one that you don't. Ideally, ideally. But if you do get one that you don't like, then I'm the person to go to the publisher and be like we don't like this. Here are the changes we want.
Speaker 3:Um, and I always say that my authors what I want them to be able to do is just focus on their writing, um, and then be in all their interactions with the publisher, be the person who's like, oh, I'm so excited to work with you, like, this sounds fun. And then I'll be the bad guy If I'm like, no, that's too much work, we're not going to do that. Or like, no, we don't like this cover. Or like we can't do this edit because it's wrong or whatever it is. I'm that person, so that the author doesn't have to be that person.
Speaker 3:Um, and then you know, as, as a book finishes going through the editorial process and it goes into copy edits, um, then I'm also starting to have the conversation with the author about, like, what they're writing next. Like are they writing a sequel that's part of that book deal that we did, or are they writing something new that would be a follow-up to that book? And then, at the same time, we're also pausing to talk about the book, the upcoming publication, and like what the marketing publicity plans look like, while the publisher is doing their thing, which the author be doing for promotion. So, as a result, I feel like my day, any any given day, could look so different in terms of what I'm talking about. Um, because, also because I'm going through those steps with 30 different authors, uh, some of whom write romance, and so they write about three books a year, and then some of whom you know, write more literary fiction, and so they might write a book every three years, or something like that. So so, where they are in the process, every day is so different. So, as a result, my day is always so different, and sometimes that means a problem comes up that I'm like oh, we haven't, I haven't dealt with this before.
Speaker 3:During the pandemic, one of my authors we had to move her pub date back because her books were printed in China and they were sent on a ship across the ocean and somehow some of the books fell off the ship into the ocean and so there were not books to get to the stores, and so we had to move her pub date, and so, like we had to have a call about that and figure, like, how are we going to message this to fans that actually their book is going to be delayed, and you know, what do we do about the book tour that was planned and things like that? So, sometimes, like weird things come up that you're like, oh, okay, well, let's figure that out. So that I feel like that is, my job is to plan as much as we can for the worst possible case scenario and how to protect the author against that worst case scenario. Um, and then, when the stuff that we didn't necessarily see coming comes up, to also figure out like, okay, how do we fix this?
Speaker 2:love that. What is your slush file looking like these days?
Speaker 3:So I get a lot of.
Speaker 3:I get a lot of YA and I definitely I also get a lot of fantasy and I would say that right now I'm seeing a lot of romanticy, which is definitely a buzzword, but I would say that it varies.
Speaker 3:You know, sometimes it is the romanticity that feels a little bit like the romance is the A plot and then sometimes the romance, or sometimes like the romance is the B plot and actually like it's the fantasy world and the world pulling and like whatever politics are going on there, it's the A plot. So that could be a pretty broad range. I'm seeing a lot of that. I also am seeing it sort of interesting like almost like a horror romance mashup of genres right now and I think that's kind of interesting. It's like almost like sort of taking like what's working in romanticity and like taking it a step further. So and I did hear I have not seen this in my first file, but I heard from an editor that she's seeing a lot of dystopian romance, which she called disto romance, but I don't know that that moniker is going to take- off.
Speaker 2:What would you like to see? What are the things that you're hoping to receive?
Speaker 3:Oh you know, I always say that I will follow a character I love anywhere, and so and I, I guess, like, what makes a query stand out the most to me is actually like the, the voice in the query, and I know that's really hard, like it's really hard to get voice into your query because it's very short, um, but um, but that's usually what makes me be like I want to read this, um, and so I don't necessarily. I mean, I, I'm a 16 year old girl at heart, I love romance, I love magic. So, like, if you know anything about my authors, you would know, like you could tell, like I love my fantasy romance that you know have slight speculative elements that are, um, you know, family relationships or rom-coms, like I love. I was that kid that loved to read anything, um, and I still am.
Speaker 3:So I, I love characters who are, um, really passionate, are, um, really passionate, who mean well but are flawed and, you know, make those decisions that, like, as a reader, you might be like, oh, I see why you did that, but that's gonna make everything so much worse. Um, I, I never would have said that I liked unlikable characters, but I sold a book early on in my career and, um, we had several rejections from editors that were like, oh, I don't like unlikable characters, and I was like, what are you talking about? I love her. And I realized, oh, oh, I do. I, as long as people like you know if they have redeeming qualities and you kind of understand why they're going down the path they're going down. If they're interesting, I really like them. So that's my non-answer to that question.
Speaker 2:Do you have any advice for people who might want to become literary agents?
Speaker 3:who might want to become literary agents. I mean, I think the best, the best advice I can give you is to read a lot of the books that are on the bestseller list I apologize, my phone is making noise Read books that are on the bestseller list, that are on the times list. I, when I first started, I had asked someone in someone in publishing, like you know, I was like I don't, I have just an English degree. Like, should I like? Should I take classes in publishing? Should I do something? And he was like, no, you know, the best education really is like what is selling well, like what's working well and um, and to read as much as you can, um and so for me, one of the things that that I think really helped is, like, you know, I read things that that hit the best seller list, that people were all talking about.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, I mean I remember reading 50 shades of gray and it. It was not my favorite read, but it was like, like I always approach books that like maybe I didn't love but that were selling really well, with the idea of like, what is it? What is it that that the average consumer is reading and loving about this? Like, what do they like about it and what is kind of pulling them in, what's making them go on to like the next book, and I think that I think that's probably a very similar quality that's helpful to you, whether you're an agent or a writer, because sometimes, like you can look at a book and be like it's not my favorite, but the way the author you know, the way they end each one of their chapters, or something really makes you want to kind of like keep turning the page or something like that. Like you can usually find a reason of like why other people might be loving it even if it's not your favorite.
Speaker 2:Love that. What genres do you think are selling really well right now?
Speaker 3:So fantasy romance is selling really well right now. I think that it's a. It's one of those genres that has a little bit of something for everyone. Genres that has a little bit of something for everyone. Rom-coms are still doing very well. I think that there's a little bit of element of escapism right now, and I would say that we've seen this since the pandemic.
Speaker 3:Going into the pandemic beforehand, I remember people being like oh yeah, I have a lot of fantasy on my list, I don't know that I'm acquiring much more. And then the pandemic hit and suddenly it felt like everyone being like oh yeah, I have a lot of fantasy on my list, I don't know that I'm acquiring much more. And then the pandemic hit and suddenly it felt like everyone's like no, no, I do want fantasy because I want to get away from real life, and I think that's still that's still the case. I think that horror has has really been doing well also, and I think that that it's almost like an element of like you read something and you're like oh, my life's not that bad. Um and um, and then I think that it's hard to do a book that's funny and so humor. Um always does really well If you can actually make people like laugh out loud, then that always does well.
Speaker 2:What do your agent author relationships with your client look like? Do they pitch you novel ideas or do they send you proposals, or do they send you whole novels?
Speaker 3:So it's sometimes it depends on them. I have an I have one author who um it. She always says that if she starts trying to talk about a book before she writes it, before she writes a draft, that she won't be able to actually finish the draft, that she has to just sit down and write. If she tries to talk about the plot, like it just it's dead. So so she'll just email me and be like I wrote a thing here. It is Um, and I I've had authors before who will write something um, and send it to me and be like I started this project as a YA novel or as an adult novel, but now I wrote it and I don't know what it is Um, and I always say like that's fine, I will, I'll read it and I'll tell you like where it will go. Um, but um.
Speaker 3:And then on the other end of the spectrum I have I have some authors who will have like a spreadsheet of ideas and when it's time to think about a new book, they'll send me their spreadsheet and kind of be like what, which one do you think I should write?
Speaker 3:Like, what do you think is the most commercial? Um, and we'll potentially like talk about several ideas and and then pick one, um and, and then I have some other authors who fall in the middle where it's like they'll work on something a little bit and maybe send me like a snippet or send me kind of like a pitch or like a first chapter and ask for my thoughts and then sort of like, and then dive in full speed ahead. So I think for me as an agent, like every author works differently and so I have to be a little bit adaptable to the process, because I can't actually do anything right, like my job doesn't exist if I don't get a manuscript, if I don't get the book. So whatever's really whatever's going to help the author get that book written best. That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2:Awesome. I'm going to move into some craft questions. What are the essential elements of a good YA novel?
Speaker 3:Oh man, I mean. So I think one of the things is that you know, as a teenager, like everything can feel so life or death can feel so life or death, um, and so the in a YA novel, that sense of like, urgency I think is so important. Um, and obviously, like, if you're, you know, writing a dystopian novel, like a hunger games, where you know kids are killing kids and are you going to survive, like that's clearly very life or death. But I think that, um, you know, if, in a situation where, like you know, even a book, a book where the plot is just like, um, about a girl whose mom is sick, that's still life or death, that's a life or death situation to that character. And so I think that you can still infuse a sense of urgency into almost any situation in a YA novel.
Speaker 3:But I think the best, I feel like the best way to do that, or like the thing that you really need, is to ensure that there's so much emotional resonance, um, between the reader and the character. Um, and the. I always, probably everyone I work with, uh, who is a writer, gets annoyed with me, because one of the questions that I'm always asking in edits is like but what are they thinking right now? How are they feeling? How did they react to this dialogue that this other person said? And I think that, particularly in YA, like closing the narrative distance and like really getting into that the character's head helps really build emotion and create that resonance with the reader.
Speaker 2:What do you look for in the opening pages of a manuscript? What do you like to see on the first page?
Speaker 3:So, early on in my career, I went to a writing conference and someone had asked oh, I was on a panel with a bunch of agents and someone in the audience asked, like when? Like how much do you read when you get a query, like in the pages, like how far in do you read? And there was an agent who had been in the business a long time, he had a lot of bestsellers and he said I read the first line. If I like it, I read the first line. If I like it, I read the second line. If I still like it, I read the third line. And he was saying, like you know, as soon as I'm not hooked and I can put it down and walk away, like that's when I stop.
Speaker 3:And at the time, you know, everyone thought that that was a very harsh answer, but I do actually think that it's really true in that, like, if you think about it, like when I go to look at my queries, I usually have, you know, probably it does amount to probably like between 150 and like 200 queries a week, um, and I often am sitting down to do them like once every couple of weeks.
Speaker 3:So they've piled up, um, and my goal is to go through them and like read all, read them all, uh, uh, in one sitting and say yes or no very quickly. Um, and so, in terms of, in terms of like the, the writing and the voice and and the character and everything like that, I feel like you really need the character and the voice of the manuscript to sort of like pop off the page right from the get, go um and and it again it. You know, sometimes that's really easy if you have a really high stakes plot to, like you know, start in the middle of the action with something surprising and sort of catch someone's interest. Um, but there are like so many beautiful books out there where, like, it's just the character, the character's voice, talking about something that's interesting or important to them. That really kind of like opens the manuscript and makes you feel like, oh, I want to, I want to get to know this person, like I, I want to know, like, where they're going love that.
Speaker 2:What's the biggest mistake that you're seeing in your slash pal currently?
Speaker 3:um. So you know I always say, like, in terms of my queries, that like sometimes I get queries where, like you know, someone spelled my name wrong, which is just like you got one chance to make an impression, like you want to make sure you proofread, um, or like sometimes I'll get things where, like someone you know clearly doesn't they're not telling me what their book is about, which is like the number one thing I want from a query. But I would actually say that for the most part, I don't really see that many like queries where you're like, oh, this was a big mistake. Thing that makes me pass on a query is that it feels a little forgettable or it feels too much like something I've seen before, like it just doesn't feel like I'll remember it tomorrow.
Speaker 3:And and I this is why I kind of think for me at least, it's come down to like the voice of the query, because you know there are, you know you mentioned Cassandra Clare. There's a lot of plots that might be similar to some of her plots out there, but I think that it's it's the voice that tends to tends to stand out and tends to make people then like talk about the, about the characters, like fandoms. They always respond to characters more than they respond to like the world or the actual plot, like they like those things and they think they're cool. But you always see fandoms arguing over like love interests and things like that, and you know, being on a certain team or whatever, writing fan fiction about characters. They wanted to be together and and so I, I really think it kind of comes down to that Love that, love that.
Speaker 2:And any advice on creating compelling characters.
Speaker 3:What are the kinds of characters that you love? So I think that probably the big thing, the big advice I guess that I have on compelling characters, is that you want to know them so well, like you want to know them inside and out, you want to know their personality, them so well, like you want to know them inside and out. You want to know their personality, you know you don't have to necessarily know their like astrological sign or like things like that, but like all of their personality traits, like you want to know that inside out, you want to know their motivations, you want to know, like what they would do in certain situations. Because the more you know the character is sort of off page then the easier it is to get that on the page. And at the same time, I would say that the biggest advice that I give authors in terms of their characters is when you're, particularly when you're editing like once you have a full draft and you're rereading and looking at everything, like I would definitely make sure that when you're editing like once you have a full draft, um, and you're rereading and looking at everything, like I would definitely make sure that when you're, when you're talking about your character's emotions or you're, you know, trying to convey their motivations or their reactions to things. I would say that, like you probably want to like flesh it out like one step further than you think you need to, because once you know a character well, um, it's easy to feel like you've like conveyed their thoughts and feelings and and everything on the page and sometimes, you know, to the reader who's just meeting them for the first time. Sometimes we need more.
Speaker 3:So I I often give that note In terms of, like, what makes a character compelling to me. I mean a little bit along the lines of what I said earlier about how, like I really I really like characters who make mistakes, who mean well, but make mistakes. Because you know, particularly in YA, through thinking of YA novels, because you know, all of us, as teenagers made some, I'm sure, some pretty embarrassing mistakes and and I think that you know, no matter what's going on in a character's life, like if they're taking action, um, to try to solve something, to try to get around an obstacle to get what they want or what they need, or whatever it is, um, you know they're not going to, they can't do it perfectly, otherwise there's no story Right, so, um, so I love characters that, like you know, they have good intentions, they think they think they're doing the right thing, but perhaps they're not, uh, and they're making mistakes. And then, you know, the stakes keep building from that love that.
Speaker 2:Any advice on keeping the tension going throughout the novel and avoiding the saggy middle.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I would say that you know, sometimes this is I think pacing is something that you often kind of address a little bit more, like after you've written your first draft and like once you're going through it. But I would always say, like for any scene, you want to get into the scene late and you want to get out early. So every scene should in some way help develop your character, move along the plot and potentially, you know, give the reader some insight either into the world or the backstory or something like that. And I always feel like you know, if you, when you're watching a TV show and characters call each other on the phone, they never say goodbye, they just hang up on each other. And it's something that I feel like as the audience when we're watching, we don't even really think about it, because you see them, they hang up like the phone call's done good. But it's because that, even though that's really unrealistic like I can't think of the last time I just hugged up on someone at the end of a conversation it's almost like the goodbyes can be implied, they don't need to be written out, and I think it's kind of like a good analogy for getting out of a scene early or getting in late, is that you know you don't need your hellos and goodbyes, you just need to get into the scene.
Speaker 3:Um, and then I also think that sometimes, um, you might, as you're looking at a scene, if you're thinking like, oh, this scene doesn't really move the plot forward. It does tell me some things about this character, but it's not moving the plot forward. That might mean that you want to take those character details that are learned in that scene and you might want to add them somehow in a different scene, like the scene right before it or the scene right after it. Sometimes you have to write certain scenes in order for you, the writer, to know them and then later you can go back and look at them and think like, oh, like I don't actually need this. The reader doesn't need to see this happen. They can find this information out a different way. So I think that's something to always keep in mind.
Speaker 2:And how would you suggest they tie it up Like what do you like to see in an ending? How do you suggest that you make their ending satisfying to readers?
Speaker 3:Well, so I actually I always tell people that, like I never would have done for Mac McCarthy's the Road, because it's like so bleak. I don't need like an ending that wraps everything up in a tight bow, but I usually, like I want enough closure. So, like you know, if you think about a plot, like any plot boiled down to its like most simplest form, is that you have a character who wants something. There's an obstacle in their way and they take action to try to get it and things go awry from there. Um, and you know, in the end of the book they might not get what they want. Sometimes they do, um, but they, if they don't get what they want, they usually get what they need instead.
Speaker 3:Um, and so I think that, like you want some sense of closure in that respect. Um, and it doesn't have to be happy, it doesn't have to be all wrapped up, um, I personally like a hopeful ending, but plenty of other people like their bleak, sad or like terrifying ending. So, so, if you're, if you have an ending like that, it's okay. It's just probably not for me.
Speaker 2:Love that, love that. So you read the manuscript, you adore the manuscript, you're ready to make the call. Um, what are you looking for in the call and what should we be looking for when we talk to agents?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So for me, what I'm looking for is I, your agent, author relationship is a long term partnership. It's a long distance relationship, right? Because we're not. We don't see each other that often, probably, and so I always want someone who is a really good communicator. I, I really want to know, like, what are, what are their hopes and dreams? Like, what are their pie in the sky goals, what's their vision, not just for this book, but for their career as a whole, and you want to be able to balance that a little bit with like, with like the big goals, but also like the dose of realism, of kind of like. You know. You know, I had an author who said to me one time she was like I want to hit the bestseller list, maybe not with this first book, but someday, like that's my goal. Like I want to hit the New York Times list. I want to be able to say that I was a bestseller.
Speaker 3:And I was like, yeah, great, and I, you know I had another author who was like you know I, she was like I someday, like my, my pie in the sky goal would be to, um, you know, get the film rights options and be able to write either the screenplay or the uh, like the TV pilot. And she always says, like it doesn't have to. I don't want final cuts, but like I'd love to be able to do like a first draft and, and I think for you, what is probably like the things that you want to think about in terms of an agent is one I mean, do you feel comfortable opening up to them and talking about, like your vision for the book and your career and things like that? Um, do they seem receptive to the ideas? Do they seem to have a similar vision for this book and like for your career? And I think like a good way to ask that question is to think about, like what you can ask the agent like, what are the comp titles that you see for this book? Um, because if you're envisioning your story as you know, something that sits on a shelf next to like Emily Henry or like Allie Hazelwood, and the agent is like, oh, the comp titles are, you know, and they, they give you something that's like much more obscure. Then you kind of know, like, okay, we might not have the same vision for this, and then I also think it's it's probably really important for you to also talk about, like you know, what other kinds of books do you want to write?
Speaker 3:Like, are you someone who, like is like I just want to write YA, I always want to write YA, I'm not ever going to want to do anything else, that's totally fine. But if you're also like no, I I wrote this YA book and I'm excited about it, but I also someday, like want to write adult books and I have this one weird middle grade idea and like, maybe I want to write a picture book. Like, those are all things that you want to be able to talk to that agent about and like make sure that if you guys worked together, if you wrote something, um, that's not the same as what they're signing you for, um, you know, are they still going to want to work on it? If they read something and it's not their favorite, what do they do? Like, are they going to give you notes and help you get it there so that it's ready to sell? Are they going to know editors in different spaces to help get it to?
Speaker 3:I often tell clients or prospective clients like I I've done a little bit of nonfiction, I've done a little bit of picture books, I've done a couple of graphic novels Um, they're not my forte, but I know the right editors to get the books too, and that's kind of what matters. Um, I've never done a business book. You would not want me to sell your business book, but there are people on my team so if I sign someone for a YA fantasy and later they wrote a business book, we have someone who can help them sell it. It just wouldn't be me, because I would not know anything about who to go to for that Love that Love that we have some questions in the chat.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes okay. One person says your manuscript list says you like upmarket fiction, upmarket book club fiction. What does that mean and what does that look like to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, so um, so market um means basically kind of like not quite literary fiction, but like less James Patterson, I'd like more um. Oh gosh, now I'm blanking but like, just like a little bit more elevated, like the kind of the kind of books that you would read in a book club and talk about, or the kind of books that would have the like the discussion questions in the back, where you're talking about not just plot but also like theme and intention and like you know what do we think the writer was thinking when they did this no-transcript? I want things with a little bit more heart and a little bit of philosophy and not just like, oh, it's all action, um, but um. But I think that you know a really good way to think of like. What are some examples of like book club fiction is actually, if you looked at like Reese Witherspoon, hello Sunshine Company she does those uh, like Reese Witherspoon book club picks. Or there's that company Book of the Month that chooses they usually choose, I think it's like five books and their subscribers will like get one each month.
Speaker 3:And those are, I would say, like really good industry examples of what book club fiction means. It's often um, it doesn't necessarily have to be um, any specific genre, like sometimes you get things that are that feel very like general fiction or like a family saga or um, sometimes you'll find something that is like a very light, accessible, like fantasy, or feels a bit like a fairy tale. And then other times you get books that have they might not be like a mystery, like might not be that someone died on page one, but there might be a mystery element to the plot. That's kind of like pulling the reader along the plot. That's kind of like pulling the reader along, but but usually they all, they all have that sort of like you know the things that you could really talk about and kind of dissect at the end, like ask questions about.
Speaker 2:Ashley wants to know. Ashley said you're interested in psychological suspense. Would you mind sharing what you're looking for in that genre?
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course I mean.
Speaker 3:So I I think that you know I read obviously like Gone Girl and Girl on the Train and and things like that, but one of my favorite books in that sort of psychological suspense genre was Ba paris wrote behind closed doors, um, and I actually listened to that as an audiobook and I think the entire last hour of the book I I sat in a coffee shop just like because I just couldn't believe what was unfolding, um, and so.
Speaker 3:So the number one thing I'm looking for is that kind of like that shock value where, like, the twists and the turns are you know things that like I won't see coming. But in terms of, in terms of concept, I actually think that, like some of those psychological thrillers that have worked so well, they work so well because they all sort of like ask the same question about, like, how well do you really know your husband? Or like, how well do you really know this person that you thought you knew so well, um, and I think that's a really compelling question. Now. There's kind of been a lot of that. So I think you have to think about it as like, how do you either do that in a different way, or how do you ask this? How does your book ask a similar but different question that a lot of people are going to resonate with, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Does anybody else have any questions? Don't raise your hand, because I can't see you all just ask.
Speaker 3:Yes, feel free to jump.
Speaker 4:I want to ask something.
Speaker 3:So how much does the market play in your decision to sign an author Like, for instance, if you really love a book that you know might not sell well, versus a book that you only like but know will sell.
Speaker 4:Well, like which one do you sign or do you sign the book?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's such a good question. I actually think it's probably it's been different depending on where I was in my career, the, you know, when I was starting out for any book that I loved but wasn't sure would sell because it was, you know, not the right time for the book, or something like that. For every one of those that I took on, I probably needed to take on like three books that I knew I know I can sell this, like this will totally sell. Um, because you know, I was also working in a place of like I have to make enough, I have to sell enough to make enough commission in order to to eat and and stuff. But, um, but now, at this point in my career, if I read something and I love it to pieces, it really doesn't matter to me if. If I don't know if it's going to sell, if I don't know if it's going to sell, because I'm in a place where I can be like I love this book, I will try really hard to sell it. If I don't sell it, usually I'm thinking like I love this author's writing, I love their voice, I have talked to them, I really connect with them and I think that they'll write something that I love, that I can sell, like well, if we don't sell this first one, we'll definitely sell something down the line.
Speaker 3:And you know, I, I also, I feel like for me I have a lot of clients. I have a full list. I don't actually have that much time. I don't sign that many clients a year. I've signed one so far this year and I didn't sign any last year, and part of that is looking at how much time I have to give to, you know, help them get to where they want to go.
Speaker 3:And I I get a lot of queries now in my career from authors who are already published, who have books, you know, and and oftentimes for me, like, even if it's an author that I'm like, oh, like they have an established editor, like this is an easy sell. I know exactly what to do with this. If it's probably like, like the, the work and the different things that we have to do to go into it, like I might not have the right kind of time for them, for them, and I actually am at a point where I always have to feel like I have to be willing to say like I will sleep less because I love this book so much that I will give up sleep, I will give up time with my family, I will stay home and work instead of like going on this trip because I desperately want to work on this book. So for me now it's much more about like I just love this. Yeah, thank you. It's a very that's a very like, very privileged space to be in now.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Any other questions?
Speaker 4:I have a question. Can you guys hear me? Yes, oh, okay, hi, first of all, thank you for doing this, appreciate it. Mine is like a functional question. You're a literary agent. When you say you're getting a lot of queries 150 a week or whatever, whatever voluminous amount it is are those people that are already represented on some level that are coming to you because you're in the mix, or are these people coming to you cold with like a first chapter or two or a treatment? What are you largely looking at as far?
Speaker 3:as yeah, yeah. So. So people who query me, um, you know I would say that 99% of the time they they're not represented, um, and we have no connection at all. You know, sometimes, sometimes there might be someone who's like I'm a friend of your author, or this person in the industry told me to query you, or something like that, but most of the time it's they're reaching out cold, but what they're reaching out with, you know their query.
Speaker 3:I always say, like a query should be about about 250 words. No one's going to count your words, but if you've written a lot more than that, it's probably too long. And if you've written a lot less than that, it's probably too long. And if you've written a lot less than that, it's probably not long enough. Um, and you basically are answering the question what is my book about? Um, and I always say, like the best examples are looking at like your book jacket copy, like the inside flap of a hardcover or the back of a paperback. A lot of times, the query that an author, a debut author, writes to me to describe their book, I use that query to and from it like make some, make some little changes, and use that as a pitch letter that I send to editors to be like you want to read this, and I cannot tell you how many times my pitch letters have ended up as the jacket copy on a book. So that's kind of like your best sort of like model. If you want examples of what works and I always ask for my queries Like I ask, send me your query and your first five pages of your manuscript, because for me I want to be able to see oh, do I like this idea?
Speaker 3:And then do I like the writing? Am I grabbed? Um, and I, when I'm reading, if I find grabbed like right away, then I don't even read to the end, I just request it and then go to the next one. If I am bored and like not into it, then I don't read to the end of the five pages, I just go to the next one. A lot of times if I'm reading and I get all the way to the end of the five pages, I kind of have to ask myself like what was it that kept me reading, like I was clearly interested myself? Like what was it that kept me reading, like I was clearly interested, but I I wasn't, I wasn't grabbed enough to be like yes, I have to see more um, and so I kind of have to sort of determine, like do?
Speaker 3:I think that it's a lot of times if I request, it's because I think that I think there's something here. I'm just not sure if the author has started the story in the right place, but that's clearly something I can help fix. So I'm going to go ahead and request it and then sometimes, when I don't, it's like there might be something here but I'm not sure enough of where I think it might be going. Or I'm not sure if I walk away from my computer and never get this manuscript, am I still going to wonder sometimes what happened to that book?
Speaker 3:Because at the end of the day, like it's the books that that you want to be able to be like. Oh, I read that like a while ago, but I love it so much that I keep thinking about it. Those are the books that you that are like kind of like calling is like work on me. So that's kind of what makes me ask that Every agent is a little bit different. So a lot of times they'll ask. Sometimes they'll ask for a synopsis, sometimes they'll ask for 10 pages, sometimes they'll ask for no pages. Everybody wants a query, though.
Speaker 4:Got it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Any more questions?
Speaker 6:I have one. So the common wisdom is, you know, it only takes one, yes, yes, and so you should never give up. But is that really true?
Speaker 3:You never get like, never give up writing. Sure.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's okay to give up on a book and that giving up on a book is like it's like you're putting it in a drawer because maybe you'll pull it out again someday later and look at it and maybe not. Um, sometimes it's just not the right time for that book. Um, you know, I I mentioned how when I started in my career, everybody wanted like a paranormal something, not vampires, they were dead, but like something paranormal. And you know, then very quickly after that, nobody wanted paranormal and everybody wanted dystopian, or you know, and the trends move around. So sometimes it's just not the right time for a book, but it could be the right time in five years, like everything is very cyclical, trends always come back.
Speaker 3:One of the early authors I signed we didn't sell her first book and it was a contemporary grounded, it was a YA mystery and no one really wanted that back then. And she wrote a second book that was dystopian and that didn't sell the world building didn't quite work enough. And then for her third book she wrote another contemporary and that we sold that and that was her first published book. Those first two books we submitted to like 40 people, 40 editors each, um, and we got a lot of nice responses to her writing, but it just wasn't the right thing, um. But after she published her first book, when her editor was like, what do you want to write next? She went back to that first one and was, like you know, I still love this book. I've grown a lot as a writer. I definitely like to like, make some changes. But what do you think about pitching this book to the editor? And I was like, yes, let's do it. And that was her second book, her second published book. So so things always come back.
Speaker 3:I think that if you're, if you're writing something and you're querying and you're getting a lot of passes, and you, you know, I guess, if you're getting a lot of passes, I'd say first revise your query and revise your first chapter and send them out again, because sometimes it's just, it's just the query, um. But if you're not getting good responses with it and you're feeling a little stuck, you know else, keep learning, keep practicing your craft. Like you get better and better as a writer with every book you do, and probably with every book you read too. So I think you just kind of have to keep going. I do sort of firmly believe that the you know, at the end of the day, the never give up advice is really good advice. It's just don't give up on the dream as a whole.
Speaker 3:I have an author who she always talks about. It wasn't her first book that got an agent, it was her eighth book. And it wasn't the book that she signed the agent for that got published, it was the second. The second book she did with that agent was the first one that got published. And it wasn't her first book that hit the New York Times list, it was her seventh book. And and you know then, like it wasn't, it wasn't her seventh book that got a big advance, you know it was her ninth book or something like that. So like that, those milestones a lot of times, like it doesn't happen right away and every writer, even writers who are hugely successful, uh, they all have a novel in the drawer somewhere that tied into a question in the chat, so, um, I think you can answer.
Speaker 2:He was just asking someone was asking when to give up on a book because they had 40 rejections, and that was great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I mean, I think that like, I think if you still are feeling like I love this book, even if you have a bunch of rejections, then it might just be like go back and reread and do some revisions. And I always tell authors that for me and I think for a lot of agents, like potholes or world building questions, those are easy notes, right, like those are things that I can read something and be like wait, I don't understand this world piece, like, explain it to me, Like let's get that in the manuscript and that's an easy fix. The harder fixes and the things that would cause me to reject something are always more about the character and the voice. If it's not there, like that's a hard. That's a hard note for me to give an author and know that they'll be able to fix it. Um, or sometimes the pacing if the pacing, you know, slows, slows down or is too fast and things like that, like that's also a hard note for me to give and have confidence Like I know the author will be able to fix this.
Speaker 3:So I think those are probably the two most important things to look at and try to try to revise and then query again, and I actually always say, if I got your query again because I get so many if I didn't request it, you can always query me again, as long as you rework your query, because I won't remember that I got it before. So you can always go back to agents that you went to before if you've revised. Because the only time I've ever remembered is there was a guy once who he used to query me every week with the same query. He never rewatched it and after like a year, I mean, I guess you could say it was a good strategy because, like after a year, I finally requested it. I guess you could say it was a good strategy Cause, like after a year, I finally requested it.
Speaker 3:It was like let me read this book, um, but then I gave him notes and he was like I don't want you to edit me, I want you to just sell my book. And I was like oh okay, I'm sorry, nevermind, but um, but I feel like you know for the most part, um, I have a couple of who who queried me and they either queried me with a different manuscript or they queried me with the manuscript I ended up signing them for, but a different version of it, and I had said no, and then later they queried me again and I I was like, oh, I'd like to see this and now we work together. So, um, and they were all afraid to tell me that at first, which I was like why? That's great, it's a great story.
Speaker 6:But no. So I keep trying. Can I ask a little follow-up? Sure, so the theme of the well, about 40% or so are rejections. Most are just silence right. And then the rejections all seem to say the same thing, which is not the right fit. In fact, that phrase shows up almost every time. Even I've had a couple of partials, and they come back the same. Not the right fit. What is that code for? If anything I mean, does it mean anything other than I wrote you off right?
Speaker 3:You know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, and the thing is is that you know, at the end of the day, my, my job as an agent really is to like my responsibility is to my clients. To like my responsibility is to my clients. And so, while I feel like I'm always looking, you know, for the potential next book that I'm going to fall in love with and that I might want to represent and that might become a client still especially now in my career like, 99% of my day really is just clients, it's not prospective clients. And so you know I have to prioritize my time for clients, which means that a lot of times if I'm passing on something, whether I'm passing on a query or a partial, it's just a form response and everyone is getting the same thing, and so that like not the right fit could mean anything from like I wasn't invested in the beginning. I don't like this concept.
Speaker 3:I represent something else like this concept or or even something that, like you know, is really unhelpful. Like mermaids creep me out. I don't want to book about mermaids, so like it just really unhelpful. Like mermaids creep me out. I don't want a book about mermaids, so like it just really could be anything. But I would say that you know, if you're getting, you know there's nothing you can do about the silence, right, because who knows what that means they're busy. But if you're getting what feels like a lot of rejection in terms of your ratio of like rejections to requests, then my recommendation would definitely be to try to rework your query. Sometimes that might be just pull out a blank page and you know what the other query says, but just rewrite it and try to do it a little bit differently, because sometimes that can really help.
Speaker 3:Um, another thing that I would suggest is in terms of agents that you're reaching out to. Um, I know that a lot of you know the pandemic brought a lot of new problems and um, and so a lot of agents who are have been doing this longer and are more established, found themselves in a position where, almost like we had the right amount of clients for pre-pandemic time, but now it almost feels like you have too many, because we're spending more time solving, you know, problems that weren't problems before, like, oh my gosh, how are we, we gonna get this printed in time? Uh, you know, or there aren't any, there aren't any truck drivers to drive the books from the warehouse or whatever. Um, and so I definitely, I would recommend, like, definitely, submit to agents who are, you know, newer agents, who work at established agencies, because a lot of those agents, like they're the ones that, like, they're building their lists, they're really hungry for, for authors and and I always feel like you know, you have to everybody starts somewhere, and you know that that author, who you know signed with me, was my first client, like, she queried my boss and not me, but you know, she took a huge chance on me and I'm really glad that it paid off.
Speaker 3:I think it helped that I was at an established agency and that I had a lot of agents that I could talk to and, like, get the right advice from and, obviously, like, like we connected well. But I think that, especially right now, if you know, you're feeling like I want to find the right person that there are, so there are so many great agents out there who are relatively new, like within the like the last couple years, couple of years, who assisted another agent for a couple of years before that, and now they're building their own list and I think that you might have better luck with some of them than people who've been doing this for like 10, 15, 20 years, just because a lot of people that I talk to who've been around that long are feeling a little bit like oh, I'm just so busy, like I don't have time to sign new authors. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Love that, love that. So I'm going to do a quick question, really quick. You mentioned things that were dead a while ago, so I'm just going to throw out some things and can you tell me if they're dead or if they're still, okay, dead or alive? Yeah, vampires Alive, actually Witches, oh, alive, very alive, very hot Dystopian.
Speaker 3:That remains to be seen. It's been dead for a while. I've heard some people who think it might be coming back. I'm skeptical, ghost a little bit.
Speaker 2:Dead zombies, pretty dead. I haven't heard anything about zombies, I'm just curious um dark academia uh, very hot right now.
Speaker 3:It just has to be like pretty different and distinct okay, any other questions?
Speaker 2:you guys nope. Well, thank you again, suzy, for absolutely everything. You've been brilliant and you've been so sharing your wisdom. We appreciate that, no thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you again so excited.
Speaker 3:I mean congratulations, so excited for you.
Speaker 2:Thank you thank you, thank you, thank you appreciate it all right have a great night everybody.
Speaker 4:Bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 5:That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD Mayer. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.