Season 2 Episode 10: How to Stand Out in a Crowded Market: Amy K Runyan’s Top Manuscript Tips

Ever wondered how to captivate an agent’s attention with your manuscript? Join us for an enlightening conversation with award-winning historical fiction author Amy K Runyan on this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles. Amy shares her invaluable insights on avoiding common pitfalls in student writing, establishing clear communication with MFA program instructors, and the art of crafting a unique premise while staying attuned to market trends. Her practical advice on setting realistic timelines and meeting deadlines is a must-hear for aspiring writers aiming for traditional publishing success.

What’s the secret to creating characters that stay with readers long after they’ve turned the last page? Amy dives into the complexities of character development, showcasing examples from classics like "Much Ado About Nothing" and "Othello" to illustrate the power of character flaws. We also touch on the intricacies of narrative pacing in the modern literary landscape, offering actionable tips on refining dialogue and trimming unnecessary content to keep readers hooked. Learn how to prepare your manuscript to not only capture an agent’s interest but also stand out in a crowded marketplace.

Navigating the writing industry can be a daunting task, but Amy’s journey of resilience and adaptability offers valuable lessons for both new and seasoned writers. From the importance of networking at conferences to the role of critique groups in honing your craft, discover how to stay current with market trends and persevere through setbacks. Through her personal experiences, including a transformative pivot after a manuscript underperformed, Amy underscores the importance of flexibility and persistence in achieving writing success. Don't miss her strategies for balancing meticulous historical research with the creative demands of writing, ensuring your work is both authentic and compelling.

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Chapters

• 0:05 Craft Chat Chronicles
• 16:25 Crafting Compelling Characters and Pacing
• 30:07 Navigating the Writing Industry
• 35:28 Navigating Publishing Challenges in the Industry
• 41:35 Research and Writing in Historical Fiction

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit jdmyallcom. That's jdmyallcom.

Speaker 2: 0:38

On season two, episode 10 of Craft Chat Chronicles. We are in for a real treat. 10 of Craft Chat Chronicles. We are in for a real treat. On today's episode we'll be talking to author Amy K Runyon, who's penned novels like A Memory of Lavender and Sage and A Bakery in Paris, which is out now. So in season two, episode 10 of Craft Chat Chronicles, amy K Runyon will give us lots of creative writing tips and she'll dive into the MFA process for anyone who's interested in getting a Master of Fine Arts.

Speaker 2: 1:11

For those of you who don't know, I'm co-chair of Drexel University in Philadelphia's MFA Alumni Association and Amy K Runyon is part of the faculty and staff of Drexel University, so I'm really excited to get some writing tips from her today. So let's get chatty. That's season two, episode 10 of Craft Chat Chronicles. Amy K Runyon is a historical fiction author. She's award-winning and widely acknowledged for her brilliance as a packet exchange professor and a writer, and today she's going to give us some tips on writing for your packet exchange. If you're an MFA program, like Drexel's low residency MFA program, these tips could help you get your packet together. And if you are not and you just want tips to improve your writing. Please join us. There's a lot to learn.

Speaker 3: 2:07

Hey, hi. And if you are not and you just want tips to improve your?

Speaker 2: 2:09

writing. Please join us. There's a lot to learn. For starters, can you give me a little bit of an example of common mistakes you find in student writing?

Speaker 3: 2:26

find in student writing.

Speaker 3: 2:27

Well, I think the most important thing is that you need to discuss your plan or your goals with your packet instructor so that you know what the so the packet instructor knows what the student is after, what their goals are for their career and for this project, and I think taking the time to you know have a an early conversation before the term your first term starts is very important.

Speaker 3: 2:51

I always like to have a good 15 minute chat with all my new students so that I know what the end goal is, because, if you know they're different, people are after different things, whether they want a traditional publishing gig or to go into academics, etc. Those goals are going to look different and you know I certainly have a lot more to offer the student who's after a traditional publishing gig, because that's where I live, and so that's my first piece of advice is to really maintain an open forum of conversation with your packet instructor, and a good packet instructor should be willing to field emails all the time, even text messages, if you get that comfortable and you know not being afraid to ask if something works or to even throw somebody a paragraph and say is this doing what it needs to do and I think that that's really a good rapport to have. And I think that the counterpoint to that is knowing what you want out of the program and knowing what you want your piece to accomplish.

Speaker 2: 4:02

Okay. So when reviewing the, once you've had the conversation, what's your next step? Usually with the student.

Speaker 3: 4:08

You know I like to come up with a plan quarter by quarter. When are we going to, you know, are we going to? Are you going to give me 60 pages up front and we're going to have one like two hour mega zoom, or are you? Are we going to break it up and I want you to have a specific timeline?

Speaker 3: 4:26

One of the hardest parts about being a professional author is working to deadline, but it's just a reality of the business and so you've got to learn to do that and you need to learn to. You know, set your expectations, um, and and have a plan moving forward. Um, that seems to be a common theme. It really is. But, yeah, having a schedule and knowing what you want to do for each of those quarters and, if you can, you know, if you know you look at the entire, if you've already got a piece and you're revising it, you know you can break up and say I want to work on, I want to show you my book. In the first three quarters, we're going to work together, and then in the fourth quarter, I'd like to, you know, work on some revisions of the parts that weren't working. That's perfectly valid, but having that game plan, I think really gives the program focus.

Speaker 2: 5:17

Love that For your students who want to be professional writers and who want to go into traditional publishing. What are the strengths you most often see and what are the areas you would suggest students work on improving?

Speaker 3: 5:29

Well, you know, I think that the best tool in your arsenal or your toolbox is to have a unique premise, and that's easier said than done, and that's something that your packet instructor can't just provide for you. I mean, they could, that would be extremely generous, but chances are they're keeping their good stuff for themselves. But I think that it's important to an understanding of the market and understanding what is selling. And, of course, that's very tenuous, because in historical fiction, certain things go in waves. In waves, you know, for the longest time it was the tutors, and you could write a book about Henry VIII's second cousin, twice removed, and somebody be interested, because everybody was obsessed with the tutors, likely because of the HBO show, and then, forever, it was world war two. You'll notice, I jumped on that bandwagon. We all did, we all did, we all did, and that's fine. But those bubbles, you know ebb and flow and some of them last longer than others, and so you can't chase the market too doggedly and you want to be an outlier. Being an outlier is both risky, but it's also where the greatest reward was, if we look at one of the biggest books of 2023, or I guess it was late 24, might've been early 23,. Lessons in Chemistry was a breakout book and nobody had written anything quite like it. You know for, for, for you know, ever, and it's definitely you were seeing more and more books try to emulate that. I don't think that's necessarily the strongest position to be in, you know, trying to emulate a big book, but all the same, like finding an interesting spin For me, world War II. You know, looking at the school for German brides, nobody had written about the Nazi bride schools. It was a niche that nobody had written about. Yeah, okay. So you know it's really important to be aware of what's happening in the market, but you don't want to chase the trend too doggedly because you don't know what's going to happen. You're aware of what's being published and you're actively reading a lot of what's happening in your genre. Is is very important because you'll be able to get a sense of where things might be headed.

Speaker 3: 7:52

And of course we have periods in historical fiction where it's kind of that weird gap where nobody knows what the next big thing is, and it's really kind of a hard time to try to write historical fiction. But it's also a time to throw weird stuff out there, like oh, you haven't seen a book set in 1840, you know, I don't know North Central Canada, I mean, and actually that was how my debut happened. I wrote a book that was set in 1666, canada, but it was in the period between, you know, when the Tudors were in decline and before World War II had really taken off, and that, you know, I found a publisher that was willing to give it a shot and say, you know, let's see, maybe Canadian Colonial will be the next big thing Spoiler. It wasn't, but, you know, at least I got a debut, um, and that's a very fortunate thing very true, very true.

Speaker 2: 8:48

What do you see um as being the topics that are coming in right now, that seem to be popular in the ebb and flow today?

Speaker 3: 8:57

um topics that are popular. I think we're seeing in historical fiction. We're seeing a lot of later 20th century. Obviously, the big book so far this year is the Women by Kristen Hanna, which is Vietnam era. I'm not sure that everybody can pull that off. I mean, kristen Hanna could publish a phone book and people would buy it. But you know, I think that, like 1950s through the 1980s are going to have a moment and we're also seeing things creeping earlier which is exciting to a lot of historical fiction folks. Victorian era and even earlier in the 19th century are. You know, there's getting some nibbles and that's really exciting.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Cool, cool. Are there any commonalities? You've noticed from the packets that you see, as far as just in general, like things that kids today, like, really seem to be good at.

Speaker 3: 11:17

I think that one of the thing the problem bits I see in a lot of the pieces especially historical pieces, but not always historical is info dumping, where you know you've got this paragraph of you know really interesting information about I don't know um, about the pilgrims landing on plymouth rock or something like that, and it's fascinating. But you really need to be more deft about how you work it into the narrative so it doesn't feel like all of a sudden you stopped and you're reading like kincaid's Guide to American History, published in 1984, that we all read in high school, right, and we want to make it part of the narrative, make it advance the plot and that's something like every. When you reread your stuff and you should your packet exchange instructor should not be reading a first draft. They really shouldn't Take the time to reread your stuff. If you can and this is a big ask have some other people from the program or other authors or other readers or you know I've got a lot of people who have had sensitivity readers for various things have some other people read it before you send it to your packet instructor so that we can talk about.

Speaker 3: 12:34

If it's like building up a house, you need to make sure that the foundation is solid, your framing is in great shape, so that we're talking about color samples and drapes and you know, and maybe a bit of wiring, but we don't want to be talking about. You know the basic foundations of your story. You know we want to talk about how to make your prose smoother and you know how to make the dialogue flow and that sort of thing. We don't want to be talking about the bare bones like this entire chapter. I've never had that happen, thankfully, but this entire chapter is not advancing the plot. So you need to really, you know, read back over your stuff and ask yourself is X, y, y and z advancing the plot? And that doesn't mean that you didn't need to write it.

Speaker 3: 13:19

I have a chapter in the book I'm working on now, but I'm really glad I wrote. It's like exposition about the main character's job and what she does, and it's super interesting, at least to me. But it's the. It's keeping the character from moving on into the main action of the story and so it's going to get either condensed or cut all the way out, and that's fine. But it gives me some of her backstory. That will make the rest of the story richer. Love that.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Yeah, yeah. What best advice do you have for students on the very first few pages when they're just getting started? How can they most impress you or intrigue the reader when you, when they first open up their packet or their chapter first chapter?

Speaker 3: 14:06

Okay, and this is one of the hardest things. Even you I've written you know, quite a few books, knowing where to start the story. I want to see that you've spent some time considering is this the moment where we need to start the story? And I remember you know the book that I'm in it edits right now. I sent sample chapters to my editor or my agent a couple of times and she's like you're not starting at the right place. And I had it.

Speaker 3: 14:30

You know it was a very quiet scene with an older sister looking after her siblings waiting for their mom to pass away, which you know. There's some tension there but it was far better to have, you know, a contentious family meal after the funeral with a really nasty grandmother, and you know. So. You want to grab people's attention right away and that's what makes prologues kind of a what's the word? It can make them a scary choice or it can make them a very difficult, challenging choice, because you have to.

Speaker 3: 15:04

You have to set up the, the story, and if you're jumping to a scene that we don't have a lot of context for, even if it's really gripping and fun, we don't care about the characters yet because the single most important thing and this is sweeping advice for everybody who picks up pen and paper or, you know, starts typing the most important thing you have to do is to make your reader care about the character.

Speaker 3: 15:29

Everything else, every single other thing, is gravy. You can write the most basic kind of monosyllabic prose and well, people will be annoyed by that, to be sure. But if you make them care about your characters, they may keep reading. And that's the trick to keeping people reading, because it's not just about getting people to take an interest in your book and to click on your book and maybe buy your book, and then you don't want them to leave it on a shelf or just open it up and do not finish, or on their Kindle what have you? You want them to finish the book and to review the book and to become fans and talk about your book, to proselytize about your books. That's the end goal.

Speaker 2: 16:12

Now, what advice do you have for making people care about the characters? What?

Speaker 3: 16:18

I think, making your characters, you know, complex and interesting, putting some thought into the challenges they're going to face. Because the difference, you know, a comedy and we're talking in, like the greek, the original kind of greek of the term A comedy is where you have a hero facing challenges that their unique set of flaws will make difficult, but they will ultimately overcome it. A tragedy is where the hero's flaws are such that it makes it incompatible with any sort of victory. So if you think about the difference between, let's say, much Ado About Nothing and Othello, we see that those characters, ultimately we have one who is able to hear reason and to believe that his partner was not unfaithful, whereas the other wasn't. Those stories really are opposite sides of the same coin. We have a husband who believes he's been cheated on, or a fiancée, in that case, who believes he's been cheated on, but he ultimately listens to reason and believes that his bride didn't cheat on him, and they get to have their happy ever after. For Othello, the opposite is true he believes the rumors and Desdemona pays the price for it, and so either of those endings are valid.

Speaker 3: 17:46

I'm going to say that the Much Ado About Nothing ending is going to be the one that's probably more appealing to American markets. You know it's tough to say, but it all has to be the one that's probably more appealing to American markets. Hard, you know, tough to say, but not like it all has to be buttoned up and beautiful, but ending on a an optimistic note. But either of those are are valid. But you, you want to have characters. You thought about what makes them tick. Whether you're looking at the Enneagram and thinking about their different personality types or arc, you know, or the Jungian archetypes or what have you, or whether you're just ripping off the cuff. Think about what are the situations in which your character will excel and do well, and then the things that are going to really be their, their roadblock, their hindrance, and how do they react under stress, because you need to be putting your characters under stress or we don't have much of a story very true, very true.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Um, I found in my packet exchanges that, like different packet exchange teachers gave me different things um, developmental stuff, and heather christie was really, really good with detail, like she would point out little setting things that I could, you know, make a little better, that I never like saw and I I was like, hey, love that. But they both elevated my writing and helped me become better. What do you think are your strong suits? What do you think that is If you had to pick? I know you have many skill sets, but if you had to pick, what do you think that your thing is most?

Speaker 3: 19:20

You know I'm I think I'm pretty good at weeding out the things that are bogging down the pacing, because pacing, you know, we've got an impatient society. I hate to say it, but you know we've got. You know people have less time. It is not like the 1880s, you know I've got these. You know classic books above me, les Miserables, right there, nobody would you know, back then Victor Hugo had and he also, I believe, published that one in serial. But people had, you know, published that one in Serial. Even farmers and things like that, who might have read novels in the winter, when the crops were fallow or whatever, they had longer bouts of time with very little else to do. They'd read by the Fire at night or what have you.

Speaker 3: 20:04

But nowadays we have so much competition for our leisure time and you know people are spending a lot of time in the office and we have jobs that are mentally taxing and so a lot of people.

Speaker 3: 20:15

I mean you've got to find or keep the pacing going, or people are going to end up scrolling on their phones it's just, you know or watching Netflix or what have you, because people are tired at the end of the day, they want something, a story that is going to propel them, and that's not to say that they don't want an immersive story, that they can swim in a little bit, but you really have to make sure that the pacing holds up, and that's one thing I'm kind of ruthless about.

Speaker 3: 20:40

Like this paragraph is not serving you, it's weighting it down, because that's the thing that I always, you know, try to, especially now that I've. I mean, it's a little bit easier in historical fiction because there's so many active things and if you're writing, you know World War II or even post World War II, or you know the Franco-Prussian war, there, you know, things were getting slow toss in an explosion, everything's great. But you know I've transitioned no-transcript. So that's what I really kind of ruthlessly try to look for in my students packets are the ways to make the pacing tighter.

Speaker 2: 21:41

Love that and that's something they're going to need to get published, because most agents, if it slows down, if they find it slow, they're going to put it down, they're going to be bored and move on to the next.

Speaker 3: 21:53

Yeah, I mean we've got. We live in a society where there's a lot of competition for our entertainment time, which is actually less than it used to be in times past. I mean, people either had zero or a lot, it seems, if we're looking at 19th century or what have you. But you know, and you know some of that pacing stuff. It's amazing how, just looking at your dialogue tags or, you know, just looking at things at the line or the paragraph level, can you cut a few words out of that sentence and it tightens everything down so it feels like it flows faster and that's important.

Speaker 2: 22:23

Very true, very true, very true, very true. So overall um story and packet advice that you think would help as far as in the packet exchange and in the whole novel grade process as making sure the end of the bag and making your endings good, what are some tips you can toss out?

Speaker 3: 22:45

yeah, you know, I think that you know making sure that. Yeah, you know, I think that you know making sure that you've got. You know, I think it would personally be ideal to come into the program with a book written, but not everybody does. A lot of my students have, and that's great because we can workshop the heck out of it and we're not dealing with first draft stuff. This is a great position to be in. But if you aren't, you know, have a solid outline and know where you're going. And that doesn't mean there isn't room for organic discovery. You know, and that's one of the things where you know I've had characters like pop up out of nowhere, you know when I even then I've got a tightly outlined book and I know what all the banner time, the banner events, are the structure given to us by the actual historical events. But all of a sudden this character pops up in a classroom and she becomes somebody that should have probably had a POV. You know, been a POV character in a book and that's fun. It's a great deal of fun because, above all, you should be enjoying what you're doing. Maybe not every minute of it, but it should be on the whole fun. But just know what you're doing.

Speaker 3: 23:53

The MFA program is a very short period of time. Go in there with a battle plan and know what you want to do, know what you want to accomplish and don't shortchange yourself by rushing to meet deadlines et cetera and so forth. You know, put yourself in a position where you've got time to revise and think things over before you submit to your packet instructor so that they're working with your work. As you know, the work that is as good as you can make it on your own. It doesn't mean it has to be flawless. It't have to be flawless I don't want to intimidate people like that but it needs to be the best work you know more or less than um that that you can make without the help of an editor. And then the editor or your packet exchange instructor, your agent um, should help you take it to the next level.

Speaker 3: 24:45

And and you know I've always said that a good editorial letter is like a free MFA course, and so you really want people to be working with people who aren't afraid to tell you when things aren't working. You know, but thick skin because those comments I mean. Of course there are malicious people out there, but by and large everybody at Drexel is. You know everybody wants to see you succeed. Certainly your editors and agents should be there too, you know down the road. But you really want to develop a thick skin so that you can absorb all those comments, because chances are they're designed to not saying every single one of them is valid, but you know the end goal is trying to make your work better, so you should at least consider everything that's being said, even if you don't incorporate all of it.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Very true, very true. For those who are watching that are not in Drexel, encourage them to come to the program.

Speaker 3: 25:38

Let them know what makes our program special and why they should be dragons well, you know, I, first of all, I love Drexel, I love the program at Drexel. I am a, I am a, you know, a dragon for life. And, um, what I think is great is that they take, um, you know, people who are serious about their craft and serious about teaching students how to be, you know, the best writer they can be. But they pair it with a lot of business savvy so that we're not shoving students out into the publishing world without an idea of how to swim in a very, very large, very confusing ocean run by English majors. And you know, the publishing world is hard, it's hard and breaking in is extremely hard.

Speaker 3: 26:26

And the fact that you graduate from Drexel having met real agents, real editors, been to New York during the residency to see, to be in the room where it happens, is, I think, it's an invaluable experience. That doesn't happen in a lot of other MFA programs that are designed to help make people write beautiful academic short stories but aren't designed to help people become commercial novelists. And really, you know, it's almost easier to get to, to get a publishing gig and to become a published novelist than it is to find an academic, you know, a full time academic job. That's just the reality of it, because a lot of people say, well, I want to be a writer, but I can get a job teaching creative writing at the university level and have time to write, and yeah, it's great when that works out, but there are so many people who want to be in that job, it's extremely competitive. So, you know, just focusing on being successful in the industry and knowing how the industry works is invaluable, and so I recommend the program wholeheartedly.

Speaker 2: 27:30

Me too, because when you graduate, it doesn't end. Yeah, it's true, the alumni MFA we keep doing craft chats and things like this. So you're still connecting, you're still part of the family and you're still trying to inform others. So it's a great program.

Speaker 3: 27:47

It is, and yeah, so that's a great program it is, and yeah, it really is a great program and I know that the most of us packet instructors. If you want to reach out and say you know, I hey, um amy, I've tweaked my query letter. Would you mind looking at it before I send it out, or can? Can you help me look over this passage before I query, or that sort of thing? Most of us will be happy to do it. We want to see you succeed. We want to hear about all your good news, because you know we feel like we got to help a little and that's, you know, that's exciting for us because we care about you, and that's the great thing about the writing community in general.

Speaker 3: 28:22

I expected it when I started writing to be cutthroat and competitive, and you know it is competitive. But you know, as the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats, and so the success of your friends and colleagues can equate to success for you too, because book sales beget book sales, and so there's room for everybody at the table. And I've just used 87 cliches in the same sentence, and that's fine, but it's the truth. It's the truth. It really is a community. And I've just used 87 cliches in the same sentence, and that's fine, but but it's the truth. It's the truth. It really is a community and the fact that the most successful writers that I know are the most you know generous and open and caring people is for a darn good reason because they engender support from their peers and they say you know what that person is, it was so kind, they shared my cover. They're always rooting me on and that sort of thing. I'm going to do the same for them and that's how it works. And it's not transactional, it's breeding good karma very true.

Speaker 2: 29:20

Yeah, what tools do you think? Because you mentioned earlier when you were saying that they should have it as polished as possible before they present it? To you so are there any tools or resources you would suggest, like maybe um like is there any editors that you would point out, or like any places where they could meet? Beta readers or something like that, if they had.

Speaker 3: 29:42

I mean goodness, at this point, do not hire a professional editor, because invest your money in the MFA because you should come out of it with a fairly clean document. But you know, beta readers are invaluable and I think that you know every region has various writer groups, like for here. I'm in Colorado and in our region we have Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers, and it's a great place. In our region we have Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers, and it's a great place. You know, the conference is once a year and I would not be where I am if I hadn't invested the money to go, to spend time at the RMFW conference and to make contacts. And you know, I remember my first time going to the RMFW conference, going to the RMFW conference, I went to a panel on the care and feeding of online critique groups, which are the. I mean online critique groups are so handy in this day and age because picking up, you know, getting up and commuting to some library room or something to meet with six or seven other people. It can be hard, but everybody can Zoom. And anyway, I had a young woman come sit next to me, hand me a business card and say we're in a critique group now, we're friends, deal with it and we've been friends for 10 years now and 11 years, oh my goodness. And you know she published two novels that did very well.

Speaker 3: 30:59

I've published a whole slew and our critique group is no longer really, but you know it was a place where a lot of us kind of found our traction or didn't. So a critique group is no longer really, but you know it was a place where a lot of us kind of found our traction or didn't. So a critique group is a wonderful thing to have people who are at your stage. I mean it's good to have a range like people who are aspiring, people who are getting into the market and people who are, you know, somewhat established in the market, to find a good mix so that everybody can help everybody out. Because you know, even the people who are established will benefit from the eyes of people who aren't already like kind of jaded a bit by the industry.

Speaker 3: 31:36

And you know, because we do become a bit jaded, it's a hard business and it's okay, it's worth it. But you know, having that mix of ability levels is really handy. But a lot of almost every region of the country is going to have various organization and you can look by genre. Um, my group was definitely multi-genre, but if you want to have a romance um critique group or a historical fiction or a mystery critique group, that's great too. Um, but then you know you can, you can, you can basically reach out to those organizations wherever you are, and they often have like a matchmaking system to put people in critique groups or to find critique partners, because it's something that every kind of debut writer needs. Very good, very good.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Is there any other packet advice that we have or that we didn't cover that you can think of?

Speaker 3: 32:29

I think that's a lot of it. But you know, just keep an open communication with your packet instructor, know what you want to do, know what you want to accomplish and you know, just really invest as much as you can of yourself in the program and the more you invest, the more you'll get back. Read tons, I mean read the market, and you cannot chase the market because by the time you have a great idea it's already gonna be like passe, um. So you can't ride waves. But you can look at historical trends by looking at what's being published as historical novel review. Um, the publication of the historical novel. Society has reviews of. It's a volunteer organization, believe, believe it or not, and it has. It is, you know, kind of the beginning and end word as far as historical fiction and what's being published.

Speaker 3: 33:16

Of course you can look at publishers marketplace and see what's being sold, but you don't look at what's just being sold right now. Look at, you know, the historical, you know record of about five years to see what trends are emerging and see if you can find something that falls within that niche. Now you may want to write a 17th century book set in New Orleans with you know all this cool stuff and if it's a hard sell, you know that's going to be a hard thing to overcome. So but look at what's you know. It's not saying that it's impossible. And I've, you know, I've had.

Speaker 3: 33:52

I have a friend who has been trying to see to write a book set in a hard time time period with you know some things, that kind of flaunt convention like a male protagonist. That is not all that common in historical fiction. If you're unless you're margaret george, who wrote nero, um, and she got an agent right before christmas and her book is going to be discussed in a editorial meeting, um, in the next few weeks. So miracles do happen. But it took her years, years, to finally get somebody to listen to that idea. Um, so, yeah, um, so that's um. Key is look at it, read, you know, and read widely about of the books that are coming out. Know what the style is like, know what the conventions are. You cannot learn how to write um effective historical fiction that is going to be saleable by reading books that are 20 years old. Knowing the market, I think, is really important for whatever genre you're in.

Speaker 2: 34:52

Delving into the publishing world. What were some of the biggest lessons or surprises you encountered once you became a published novelist?

Speaker 3: 34:59

Well, you know, I think we all think that once I get an agent, everything is going to be grand, once I get a book deal, everything is going to be great. And the thing is, success is not linear. I have published two books where I got a two book contract with my first publisher and before the first book was even out, they told me that they were not going to publish a third, even though I was ready to have the second manuscript was being edited, and it should have been. The time, like once your second manuscript was accepted, is the time when you're usually at liberty to pitch another book, right and, um, if you're lucky enough to have a two book contract, otherwise, with your one book contract, as soon as the you know, your first round of edits have been accepted, you're free to pitch the next book. And they told me, before promise to the Crown had even come out, that they were not going to accept my pitches, not because they didn't like them, but because the pre-orders and the interest in Promise to the Crown was not enough to justify more books. And that was a tough pill to swallow before I was even a published author, before the books had even come out, and so I had to go through the agony of editing a book that I knew would get no publisher support whatsoever, and it was hard. It was really hard and you know there was a rough period in there.

Speaker 3: 36:19

But I sat down with my agent and the key in this business is getting knocked down 10 times and standing up 11. And boy how it is so true. The people who I know who have been in this business for getting knocked down 10 times and standing up 11. And boy how it is so true. The people who I know who have been in this business for 10 years or more, it's all people who have had disaster stories and come back swinging. And there are plenty of people who just said you know, I've published six, seven books. This is a rat race and I'm done, and that's fine too, and there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that too, um, but anyway.

Speaker 3: 36:50

So I sat down with my agent, um, over the phone, um, and I read her aloud, because I have an idea file and there's literally one sentence pitches, and one of them was rushing female fighter pilots in world war two. That's a nice segue out of colonial Canada, isn't it? She said, yes, write that one. That's your money, pitch kid. And so I pitched it and she's. I started writing. I was about half a manuscript in because I had to write the whole manuscript to go back on sub.

Speaker 3: 37:19

Now, if you're already at a house, the rule of thumb is that you can often get away with just writing like a proposal and it depends on the house. Like Harper Muse, they bought this book on a page. Proposal William Morrow, it's more like a solid proposal of three to seven pages and three chapters. But then if you're going on submission, depending on how established you are, back then I needed the entire manuscript and it had to be pitch perfect. Now I might be able to go away with 100 pages, so like a quarter of a book maybe if I'm lucky, and a really polished synopsis.

Speaker 3: 38:00

Um, but I'm a known, I'm a bit of a known quantity. I'm not a big, you know, big name, but I'm known a little bit. Um, yeah, I've seen her on a couple of book bub lists. She's gotten like one or two trade reviews. Yeah, we kind of know her and so not entirely a nobody, but like one step away and um, so anyway, uh, they, um, I was.

Speaker 3: 38:26

So I was halfway through working on Daughters of the Night Sky, and I didn't think that I was going to have a shot to get into Big Five after having two books that didn't do well at Kensington, which was the largest of the independent presses, and so I had my eye on Lake Union, and a funny story was that Kate Quinn the Kate Quinn posted on Facebook. I stayed up way too late last night researching the Russian female fighter pilots from World War II and I freaked out because I'm halfway done with this manuscript. There's a cloud of expletives hanging over Black Forest, colorado to this day, and my now ex-husband comes in and says what is wrong? Kate Quinn is writing my book. It was going to be my big break and, and I'm never gonna be a published author again, this is terrible. So in a moment of utter lack of professionalism, I text her and say, kate, you can't do this to me, I'm halfway done. And she's like, oh, I've had this happen.

Speaker 3: 39:18

Christopher um cw gortner was writing a book about the borgias at the same time. I was it'll be fine, and she said it was like one out of three timelines for her and a lot of her book was post-war and so there wasn't a lot of night witch material and mine was like straight night witches. You know the story of the night witches and but because of that post on Facebook I got connected with Lake Union through Libby Hawker. You know, funny thing, make lots of writer friends and her, her editor, had asked her just the previous week could you please write a book about the night which is? She said no, thanks, um, because it wasn't her bailiwick and PM on a Friday. We're pitching this Lake union on half a manuscript next week. She rolled her eyes and said fine, and we had a book deal in four weeks. Yeah, so yeah, that was the story of fine and we had a book deal in four weeks. Yeah, so yeah, that was the story of. But that was my most successful book to date.

Speaker 3: 40:13

But you know, thank you to Lake Union for that one and it was because I was willing to really to pivot. I had to pivot. So I mean the, the ability, like you may say, I want to write, you know, 17th century fiction for my entire career. You want to be like, right, philippa Gregory writes true to fiction exclusively, pam Jenoff writes World War II stories exclusively. And if you can make it great. But if you don't, or if you have if you stumble, the ability and the, the, the willingness to be resilient and to pivot in a new, new direction is, you know, it's inherent to it. That is invaluable to survival in a new direction is.

Speaker 2: 40:53

you know it's inherent to that is invaluable to survival in this industry. Very good, do you guys have?

Speaker 5: 40:56

any questions for Amy? I just wanted to know how do you usually start your research process? Where do you jump off?

Speaker 3: 41:03

Usually I try to find a really good secondary source, like for a bakery in Paris. There's a wonderful book about the Paris commune called Massacre by John Merriman um, a book recommended by my husband. Actually, my husband was the one that suggested when we were first dating because I was looking for new ideas. And he said write about the Paris commune. And I refresh my memory, I'm like dang Jeremy's right, and we found out about the book the Elder Honeymoon. It was meant to be, anyway. But so I start off there and then I data mine, I read it for a good you know kind of orientation. It's kind of like the in-depth Wikipedia article for you know the topic and get oriented in what's going on, the key, you know the key elements, the key historical details, and then I data mine the bibliography for the primary sources to really get the flavor of what was going on and then move on from there, often make a trip to CU Boulder and come back with, like, my body weight in books and really dive in. But then for something like Mademoiselle Eiffel, where there are no books, like no secondary books, about Clary Eiffel, there are a healthy number of books about Gustave Eiffel, fewer than you would think, believe it or not, despite the fact that he has created the single most recognizable man-made monument in the world, and I don't think that's questionable, I think it is without question. I mean, you see that in space where it is.

Speaker 3: 42:34

And so I had to craft together what I could, beginning off with about her through the guise of her father's story. And I mean, if you look at any biography of Gustave Vitelle, claire is mentioned because she is so integral into his life. But you had to kind of piece it together and piece together a timeline based on where he was. So the trick for that one was going to Paris twice and going, you know, getting permission to access the family archives at the Musée d'Orsay and getting your hands on her own correspondence and, of course, the time period that is most integral, from the time when her mother dies through the building of the Eiffel Tower, which is, and then the Panama Canal scandal. Afterwards, there's actually not a lot of correspondence from Claire because she is with her father and husband almost the entire time.

Speaker 3: 43:27

So you have to, you know, is really weaving a story from what you don't know, you know through the gaps in the things that you do know, and so it was a real challenge but given that my editor just got it back to me on December 15th with all caps, I love this book. You made me cry way more than I expected to. I'm calling it a win, but it was a real challenge from a research perspective, whereas, like you know, the Paris commune because I was not dealing with real historical figures, for the most part a few cameos from real people. But I had the liberty to put people where I wanted them and to create, but you know you're dealing with the framework of the. You know the political climate to create, but you're dealing with the framework of the political climate. But then, like Girls on the Line, I had an embarrassment of riches as far as firsthand accounts from the women who were involved as telephone operators in World War I, and it was a fairly easy trip to Missouri to get all that, kansas City, missouri.

Speaker 3: 44:22

And I got to meet the, by random run of happenstance, the lawyer who, in 1979, the year I was born, folks, the lawyer who won the case for the Hello Girls to be recognized as actual veterans of the United States Army. Because they were, because they were subject to court martial and all the same rules, but when they came home, they were told oh, you can't go to VA hospitals and you're not going to get a pension. No, what were you thinking? Told, oh, you can't go to VA hospitals and you're not going to get a pension? No, what were you thinking? Because they could not because the you know, the Army Code of Conduct said man, whereas, like the Navy one, the Yale Minettes got real, got full benefits. Because it said person, not man. Army one says man, specifically men, and so the, the women who had to take them to court. And it was not until there were only 20 of them surviving out of 200 plus operators that they won the case. But I got to meet the lawyer. I was trying not to sob in his presence because, like you're amazing, but that was, you know, the universe came to me on that book and that was really special, special.

Speaker 3: 45:23

But, um, I think that starting with, um, local resources and online resources and doing what you can to put things, research trips, which are they're expensive, they're great, fun, um, but they're expensive. And so, planning, you know, when I went to paris this past april, I had a practically a minute by minute, um you know, idea of where I was going to be and what I was going to do. Tuesday's Eiffel Tower day one and day three and five are going to be spent in the archives. And then you know a list of things I wanted to photograph for social media content, and you know because I had five full days in Paris and a list of all the restaurants where I wanted to eat. Um, and it was. You know it was a. It was a very serious undertaking to plan that trip, but it was a delight. So. But having that footwork done before I got to Paris, I felt like I utilized every second effectively.

Speaker 2: 46:24

Nicolette your question.

Speaker 4: 46:31

Nicolette, your question, yeah, um, so how do you kind of balance out the research and the writing? Like, do you do all of your research ahead of time and you're like, uh, or do you do it like, do you start writing because you have the idea and you're like, oh man, I'm already ready to start writing, but then you should kind of read as you go, or like kind of, because I'm kind of struggling with that, I'm writing historical fantasy novel and it's like I am now writing my other manuscript, a second draft, so that I can take time to read for the other one that I've already written a couple of drafts for, cause I'm just like that's a great that's a strong strategy.

Speaker 3: 47:01

I can't do it. At the same time, yeah, I know that there are people who like spend a. At the same time, yeah, I know that there are people who like spend like a year reading before that, and these are like the big dogs that are writing like doorstopper length books that like spend a year reading before they start writing. I am not that patient and, I guess, maybe not that devoted to like. I'm not a historian, you know, I, I, my husband's a historian. I pointed to his bookshelf, sorry, because we, we turned the basement of our house into a library. So you can tell we're a bookish nerd. We're a very well-suited couple, anyway, but we, I will start with that secondary source, like Massacre for a bakery in Paris, and that's usually enough to get started, one really good secondary source. And then getting my hands on some of the primary sources, like the big primary source that I read for Girls on the Line was Grace Branker's diary and I had to write her great-granddaughter for a copy and she mailed it to me Free of charge, like she's, like here you go, kid. Like I mean, mean not the original, but she sent me a photocopy and like I, I scanned the whole thing. And then I, um, yeah, that was, that was an amazing gift. Um, and always remember to thank those people and the thing is like that's one trick for research is that there are experts in your field or on your topic who would give anything to have somebody willing to listen to them for a day, like, oh my God, they're, they're, they're really just like information bomb. You take advantage of those people, thank them, give them gifts, um, that is important. Um, and thank them in the back of your book. Um and um, but uh, so I, I try not to get too bogged down in the research. Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working. Um, but uh, so I, I tried not to get too bogged down in the research. Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working. Um, that might be the time to stop and research. Um, uh, stop and read a good book about the topic. Um, and like for me that that with the Panama canal scandal, man, that was a.

Speaker 3: 49:02

That was a tough section to write. I, I cause I wasn't all that excited to write it, um, and so findings of the pertinent information really helped, because I have to orient the the reader into what's happening historically, um. So you know, taking the time to stop even if you lose your word count for the day and to read more, to read up on a specific topic, really helps. So I will leave gap notes. Like you know, research this fact and come back and do it later.

Speaker 3: 49:30

But if it's something where it will cause a real problem, then I will stop and research it right then, and there I try not to lose momentum. You know the distraction free writing craze is there for a reason and, of course, dealing with stuff that far back in history you can get, you can get the legalities. People aren't going to necessarily know that. They're going to attack you for using, like, a wooden hairbrush instead of an ivory hairbrush instead of a wooden one or silver one or what have you, but they're not going to know the intricacies of Canadian law in 1666. So you know you can feel free to remind your readers that this is a work of fiction.

Speaker 2: 50:11

Awesome Any parting advice you want to offer everybody.

Speaker 3: 50:15

You know, read a lot, write a lot, enjoy the process. It's, you know, yes, will it be a slog. I'm not going to tell you every minute is just, you know, a bundle of joy and just rapture all the time. To tell you every minute is just, you know, a bundle of joy and just rapture all the time. But enjoy the process and celebrate your wins. You know most of the people in this business are kind and want other people to succeed. A rising tide lifts all boats and add in whatever cliche you prefer. But you know it's tough and you've got to thicken your armor. You've got to wear your armor, thicken your skin, but when you have victories and there will be victories celebrate them, even if they seem small. Love that yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:56

How can everybody connect with you?

Speaker 3: 50:59

I have a website, wwwamykrenioncom, and you can find me on Facebook, and Threads and Threads is a lovely community, by the way, for the writing community, um, it's kind of taken. It's a like there's a lot of bookish people on it. It's kind of like a slightly nicer version of Twitter. Um, though, I think the other dark corner is that too. Instagram I'm on Instagram as bookish Amy um, and TikTok even sometimes if you want to watch my baking videos and you know. So I'm trying to have a social media presence. So, whatever your social media platform of choice is, I'm probably there.

Speaker 2: 51:38

So thank you so much for coming tonight. We appreciate you. We got lots of knowledge and information, and thanks again.

Speaker 3: 51:46

Lovely to be here. If you have, if you think of any questions after the fact, please reach out. I'm happy to help.

Speaker 2: 51:51

Awesome Will do, thank you.

Speaker 5: 51:56

That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD. Thanks for joining us. If you liked the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to jdmayorcom. That's jdmayorcom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.