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Craft Chat Chronicles
Craft Chat Chronicles
Season 2 Episode 1: Breaking into Graphic Novels and Illustration with Sarah Mai
What if the key to captivating storytelling lies not just in creativity but in the rigorous study of literature? Join us on Craft Chat Chronicles as we uncover the journey of an emerging author, who turned an unexpected collaboration with an agent in 2020 into a successful debut with Little Brown. Our guest takes us through the joys and challenges of traditional publishing, sharing how an English literature degree provided the foundational tools for their unique narrative rhythm and style, leading to the creation of their novel "Freshman Year."
Ever wonder what it takes to get a graphic novel manuscript noticed? Our guest reveals the meticulous process behind developing a pitch packet that stands out. Hear the inside scoop on crafting a 50-page document with rich illustrations and engaging character descriptions, and learn the crucial role humor and a strong core concept play in capturing the interest of agents. Through shared experiences and collaborative efforts, aspiring graphic novelists will gain practical tips for preparing a successful pitch and creating relatable, memorable characters.
Want to break into the illustration industry but don't know where to start? Listen as our guest recounts their unconventional yet successful path to securing an agent and launching their debut book. From effective networking strategies to handling rejections, this episode is packed with real-life advice for illustrators at any stage of their career. You'll hear about the emotional highs and lows, the importance of consistent practice, and the invaluable support from an artistic household that can transform dreams into reality. Tune in for an episode brimming with insights and encouragement for navigating the vibrant world of illustration.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast for tips on crafting best-selling fiction. Here at Craft Chat Chronicles, we bring you expert interviews, insights and tips on writing, publishing and marketing. Join the conversation and embark on a new chapter in your writing journey. For workshops, show notes and more information, visit JDMaihacom. That's JDMaihalcom.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, I do, and it's been a busy week. I'm still at work, so if you hear anything, it's office noise. So yeah, it's. It's been a big week so it's been very fun.
J.D. Myall:Exciting. Tell me a little bit about your publishing journey.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, so publishing journey oh boy, where do I even start? Okay, so I started in about 20, what year would that have been? About 2020, officially, um, with my agent and she had me do a sample for the cool code books, um, kind of right on as a like um test period and, um, neither of us were expecting anything out of that, but we ended up signing the project so, um. So I worked on those two books and then, kind of, while I was working on those two books, we were formulating, we were putting together the pitch for freshman year and then, I think in 2020 also, we ended up pitching that to Chris Diatti, vanna Little Brown, and then they picked it up and then I finished that book in 2023 and that's kind of been the, the journey of the actual publishing part, um, so you know, good, a good three years in the traditional publishing, yeah.
J.D. Myall:What drew you to traditional publishing?
Sarah Mai:I don't know if there was anything in particular. I don't have a real preference towards traditional or non-traditional publishing. I really like especially in comics. I really like self-published or a lot of these smaller boutique publishing houses. I think they do really interesting work and there's a lot more freedom, I think, in like form, and you're not beholden to like book formats as much. I don't think there's anything in particular and I it wasn't, I guess, necessarily like a dream to be traditionally published. It just, you know, that's kind of where the project ended up, um, but I think I'd be, I'm curious to see kind of where my journey with that goes. Um, I might do some self-publishing or I might do some kind of other um avenues for stuff in the future and there's there's, you know, kind of a purpose for everything and, um, every kind of avenue, avenue for getting your work out there. So yeah, we'll see, but yeah, I guess no specific draw as far as like big publishing houses go.
J.D. Myall:Okay, how do you think your degree in English literature influenced your storytelling and your style?
Sarah Mai:do you think your degree in English literature influenced your storytelling and your style? Well, I know a lot of advice from writers is that you need to read a lot in order to write. And I read a lot of different stuff during my English degree and I kind of gives you like a good basis for like how a story is kind of structured and you get kind of a rhythm of what something is kind of supposed to feel like or, um, you kind of get a basis for how you could do something. Um, that definitely helped with the writing process. I actually did an English like literature analysis track, so I didn't do a lot of creative writing in college. I kind of did that personally, um, and actually did. It did still help because I was still doing all the noticing and all the reading and it also kind of changes your worldview. So, you know, if I had tried to write something when I was 18, it would be totally different than what I would try to write when I was out of college and I don't think I would have been tuned tuned into the same kinds of things as I did after my degree. And you also kind of develop a sense of taste too. So, um, you kind of are able to pick out what you like and what you don't like and, um, put that into your own style too. So, um, otherwise, like, just developing the like rhythm in life of reading and of writing in an English degree helps kind of get you into the rhythm of that If you're going to try to do it later, like many, many nights late, up late, you know, writing papers helped me kind of get to that point where I could stay up late and try to clunk out a scene or something.
Sarah Mai:So, yeah, lots of rhythms, I'm talking about rhythms a lot. Clunk out a scene or something. So, yeah, lots of rhythms, I'm talking about rhythms a lot. But yeah, you kind of get, get it into your body, the like literature feeling, and it definitely helped. And I don't think there's going to, you know, I don't know if there's going to be another time in my life where I am that deep into reading all the time. Like that was probably the most intensive period of reading in my life and, um, but who knows, maybe there'll be another time where I read more.
J.D. Myall:Tell me the story behind the story. How did your debut novel freshman year, come to be Um so?
Sarah Mai:I had started writing it, um, my first semester, sophomore year, in a class in a graphic novel class actually and and um, it started as like a 12-page comic called fish out of water and it was just kind of about feeling like a fish that sort of found itself on land, was flopping around and it it was to do. It was kind of fish themed, but it was to do with that first year and feeling kind of like in a new environment, like how am I going to do this? And I I pitched it to the, or I presented it to the class and then I could. I got. I saw this kind of like spark of recognition in people's faces and I got some feedback about it and it made me sort of like feel energized in that moment that, okay, maybe like there's something there that people might need to see about, like if they Like there's something there that people might need to see about like if they went into their first year of school and sort of like maybe sort of stumbled in the entrance and kind of didn't make all the hurdles, and so after that I worked on kind of developing it slowly over college and then when I got to like the stage where I was like am I doing this for real? Am I thinking about doing illustration as a career or doing any of that?
Sarah Mai:Um, when it got to the agency part, I um had about three rounds of um developing that pitch um until we got to the publishing house. So it had a good long run before it became what it actually is house. So it had a good long run before it became what it actually is. And I think that did help, because it's kind of a hard time period to pitch marketing wise. It's not quite teen, it's not quite adult. That's kind of like part of the point too. And like it took a lot to like, hone in like where were we going to place our like tone and where were we going to place like the style and where were we going to place um like the style and um. So yeah, it was about six years um, where it was kind of slowly developing into what it became but, yeah, started in a class, started graphic novel class that's awesome.
J.D. Myall:I have a a question um. How does the submission process and all that go for the illustrator side or the author illustrator side? Because you're the first author illustrator I've interviewed. You're the first author illustrator.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, as far as like publishing, getting it into people's hands.
J.D. Myall:Like what type of document, like what's the normal form, and stuff like that. For the other, the people who aspire to be you that'll hear what you're quoted on, and all that good stuff.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, this is super helpful information, because I didn't know this. It's so you create a pitch packet and I don't know if it's like this for everybody, but this is how it was for me. I wrote about like 50 pages of a manuscript and then so it's kind of like a play or a movie script, and then I think it was the first 15 to 20 pages I illustrated in full, and then okay, let me break this down.
J.D. Myall:Was it like a PDF?
Sarah Mai:and then, okay, let me break this down. Was it like a pdf? Yep, there's a pdf. Sorry, I should create. This is a document.
Sarah Mai:First, um 15 pages was fully illustrated like how it'll look in the end product. The first three are about fully colorized, so that's like the actual end product. Then it's like black line work. Then you have the um, it's about five written scenes that are fully written out like a play, and then, um, some people have their you know script all fully fleshed out. We just did summaries to the end, um, some chapter summaries, um, so it's like a 50 page document.
Sarah Mai:And then, so it's a lot, it's a pretty considerable document. And then we also included, um a page of character descriptions and drawings of all the characters, because they're not all going to be in that. You know, first 20 pages character descriptions and then like a big summary of the book at the beginning and then like a mock-up of what a cover might look like. So there's a lot that goes into making the pitch. It takes a very long time to get it to that finish point where you can show it off, but it changed a lot after that point. And, yeah, so for the graphic novels you do need to be pretty far along in the development stage. It's not like a novel, where the whole thing has to be written essentially, but you do have to put a pretty serious packet together.
J.D. Myall:So yeah, yeah. And then you go to the agent with the packet, yeah, so sometimes you go to the yeah, it depends.
Sarah Mai:So sometimes you go to the agent with the packet, or you. I probably do that now. Now that I've gone through that phase, I'd probably start working on the packet to begin with. Gone through that phase, I'd probably start working on the packet to begin with, um, but sometimes your agent helps you put the packet together, um, and then you pitch it to, uh, to publishing houses, um, that was the thing that we ended up like going through three rounds of was that, that packet? Um, and you know it takes a couple months to put the packet together. So you know it's a pretty big like time investment. But, yes, yeah, I wish I had known that.
J.D. Myall:Okay, what do you think you did right that helped you become the debut novelist that you're soon getting recognized?
Sarah Mai:I don't know, I'm wondering that myself, I don't know, I'm wondering how myself, um, I don't know, uh, I think, well, okay, realistically, I think I had there was like a good, like a good core concept.
Sarah Mai:Um, and again, like I, I could see that like spark of recognition in people and like that spark meant to me that they maybe hadn't seen something like that specific story before and that kind of encouraged me to to keep going into it. And because it's like about it's like semi autobiographical, it's very specific and I can kind of only use my voice for that and like I think I like to put a lot of humor into my writing. It's just kind of it's the way I talk, it's the way I think about things. It's like very integral to who I am as a person, and so I think the humor had a lot to do with it. And maybe if the humor hadn't been a big part of it, I don't think this book would have made it, and that that humor was like baked into it right from the start, in the pitch, in the like proposal packet and all those things. Um, so I think that that probably had to do something with it. Um, because people like to laugh.
J.D. Myall:So you know, voice, yeah, strong voice. Are there any things that you think are essential elements to a good graphic novel?
Sarah Mai:oh, oh well, I like so many different graphic novels, so like something that's essential. This one thing might not be essential to another, like humor might be essential to one book, but it's not, you know, heart or something is essential to another book. Um, I think, like specificity is probably the one thing that is most important, because I kind of think about it like I think like specificity is probably the one thing that is most important, because I kind of think about it, like I think about a film where, like a lot of the time, I'm drawn to something that is a very particular unique look or has, you know, a very particular unique tone, and that specificity makes the projects more memorable. And so, if you can put a lot of personal like detail into it, even if it's a fictional, like, if it's things that you notice or things that are important to you, like that really like fills up a book, like it makes it just that extra level. And yeah, there's so many different genres where you could do that, so there's not, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, just specificity.
J.D. Myall:I'm trying to hand it do you have any advice for inspiring writers on creating relatable characters in graphic novels?
Sarah Mai:yeah, I mean um, novels. Yeah, I mean you have to like notice your friends and notice yourself, notice things that make you and your friends unique and make your like little things that they'll say little quirks. We all have those little things that some of us like maybe me we go on full long tangents. Um, some people are very, you know, concise and succinct and they maybe pause before they say things and like there's these elements of like time. You know there's kind of a visual and time element to graphic novels and so you can show those things. You know, you can show if someone is kind of stumbling through their words or you can show if they're maybe taking a pause before they're going to say something important or if they're launching into it and like I would just say, start thinking about those things, about people, and then start like writing them down, like writing down something maybe someone said to you that was particularly interesting.
Sarah Mai:I keep like a running tab in my phone on notes of um, just like little phrases that I hear. You know, people have these little things that they say that are so interesting and they're like I don't know where you got that, or um, maybe it's like regional or uh, maybe it's something to like a family trade or something, but that really like brings characters to life. And then, besides that, you can like watch a lot of movies, or you know it doesn't have just people, you know there's like tones of different genres too and you can pick up on that. And but I think again, it's like a lot of it comes from your personal life and and what you think is important and what you think is like beautiful or funny or interesting about the people around you, and then take notes, yeah, Notice and take notes.
J.D. Myall:How can you hook readers in the early pages of a graphic novel?
Sarah Mai:I don't know. I guess you write the thing that you have and then you hope they are hooked. Um, oh, what did I do? Oh, um, my strategy for this was to be kind of blunt, like my approach was to just like set it up as it was. Um, at high school graduation it was like a day it happened. And then I got home and I was like, okay, now apparently this is like the rest of my life and that's like how it felt, and so that's how I felt it was appropriate to like start.
Sarah Mai:This was that I don't need to get into. Like all of my high school experiences, I don't need to get into all those details right now. All we need to know is like plunk, here we are, rec graduation. Um, I think a good like in-meter res is like a classic way to to get people into a story of um, here we are in this moment and why are we in this mood and what is here. And then I went into like straight into like very personal, like changing in my room with my mom asking me like my, my details of where I was going that night and telling me to be safe, and like, just, if they I guess there's no guarantee that they'll be drawn in by that, but if you are drawn into that kind of like domestic detail stuff, then maybe you'll be interested. But yeah, I have no, that's cool, you just have to hope. You just have to hope that it's interesting again.
J.D. Myall:What tools and programs would you suggest aspiring graphic artists? Experiment and practice on.
Sarah Mai:Oh, there's a lot. I mean, there's so many options now and there's even been more options since I was in college and high school. I used an app called Procreate, which is unfortunately named, and that is great because you buy it once. It's relatively inexpensive for a drawing program. I think you do have to have an iPad or a tablet um, but you buy it once instead of a subscription packet, so you're not paying $50 a month for um, like Adobe, you know, subscription um, which is great just to kind of like get your digital drawing thing rolling.
Sarah Mai:But besides that, like I used to buy these um, I still use them like a dollar 50 notebooks from Muji and they're just little white paper and um, just sketchbook paper, and I keep a pen with me and I keep my notebook with me and when I have an idea um, and if I have the time, I'll just scribble it down. And when I have an idea um, and if I have the time, I'll just scribble it down. And like, I think a big hurdle is just grabbing those thoughts when you have them and getting them on a piece of paper, because sometimes you have the thought and then it just disappears, and so if you can just kind of wrangle those thoughts into a little sketchbook and they don't have to be anything perfect or good. Um, that's like a big first step is being able to translate those ideas just into a little sketch. Everything past, then, is like some people are really good at inking, like I did a lot of practicing of inking on like a Bristol pad or watercoloring. You know, you'll choose your medium based on kind of where you are in life.
Sarah Mai:I chose digital because I was working on like three books at the same time and needed flexibility to just kind of jump between those things and not be beholden to like my desk or you know, moving everything around and so there's so many options. And start with something that you're attracted to and if you don't like it or if you are feeling frustrated with it, don't feel like you have to struggle through it. You jump to the next thing, and they don't have to be fancy. And if you want to step up your game and get the next thing up, you can do that when you feel like it. But simple If the simpler things are, the easier you feel like it. But, um, simple if the simpler things are, the easier you make it for yourself to actually do the thing, then you'll actually do it.
Sarah Mai:And if it's digital, it's digital. If it's paper, it's paper, and um, just yeah, you just need to do it. And it doesn't doesn't matter necessarily what it is and um, I'm a big proponent of like any moment you feel the impulse, do it with what you have. And if it's lined paper, it's lined paper, and if it's grid, it's grid, or if it's on your computer, it's that and um, I love it's all good.
J.D. Myall:Yeah, I love that you collaborated on the cool code. What was the collaborative process like for the author? Illustrator, collaboration, what's?
Sarah Mai:that, like you know, it's interesting because I didn't really realize this um when I was going into it. But there's actually not a lot of conversation between the author and the illustrator um, or there wasn't for this project. It all kind of goes through the art director and the editing team, and so my real only communication with her was like saying hi on LinkedIn and getting her notes on, like the documents every once in a while, but she didn't, you know, say anything particular. Or you know, to me specifically, the editing team did a really good job of I don't they might've been getting input from her, but I'm not sure making those notes on things just like we imagine this to be a little happier or maybe we want this to look a certain way. You know, they'll, they'll give me notes and those might be from the author, but a lot of the time I think they're just from the design team. But anyway, everything goes through the editing team.
Sarah Mai:We go through multiple rounds of drawing and sketching and the script changes at least once from the first iteration to the second. Yeah, it's a lot of acrobat documents with a lot of notes in them, just a lot of annotations, and then we kind of, you know, enjoy the final product together. But there are some projects I know where there is more collaboration between the author and the illustrator, and that's usually when they have chosen each other or they're like a team. But we were put together just through agencies and and through publishing houses and that might've had to do with the specific kind of contract, because it was a work for hire contract, so the script had been written already and they just were finding someone to to finish it. So that's cool.
J.D. Myall:Yeah. What advice do you have for someone who wants to be in your position? Now for the aspiring graphic novelists.
Sarah Mai:So take care of your body, because it is a very physical activity and it's important that you keep your wrist and your neck and your back healthy so that you can keep doing.
Sarah Mai:It's like an endurance sport, like you have to stay and that's, you know, coming from personal experience of, like, totally screwing up my back even before I had started the book um, makes it a lot easier if you're not in pain.
Sarah Mai:And then just again, like as I was saying before, whenever you have the impulse and sometimes when you don't just get your thoughts out on paper, because this book was really created from, like, all those little scraps of all the notes and all the little doodles that I'd done for years, and it was kind of a culmination of those skills and those notes and those thoughts, and you kind of are able to tumble that stone into something polished over time, and you can only do that over time if you're practicing.
Sarah Mai:And so, just for the literal creation of a book, it's about developing that endurance and developing that like discipline to sit down when you feel like it, but also when you don't feel like it, and then, um, just getting the drawing done and um, because graphic novels are so long and they're such like intense process, such an intense process. It's very important to like practice, that long-term focus, and I know a lot of people already do that, because you know there's an element of like compulsion. When it comes to drawing and like comics specifically, I feel like and yeah, lean into into it, but not so far that you hurt your back, like I did, or your wrist.
J.D. Myall:Yeah, so what's your debut? Um, oh, before we get to that, how did you get your agent? Did you do the traditional snail mail or not snail mail? I, I'm old, traditional slush pile.
Sarah Mai:I think they do snail mail still. I was told to do that. So in a lucky and pretty rare case, I come from like a family where illustration is a family trade. So I had an email of Lori, my agent, and I was kind of like gently encouraged to just send her an idea to see if she'd be interested at all. She was not, you know, she didn't need to take me on it was very nice of her to do that.
Sarah Mai:But it took a couple more years until I could join the agency. And it was similar in the way of the traditional thing, in the way that I sent her all my samples and I did the packet and I had to have the book pitch. But obviously I had known her name already Um. So I think half the struggle is hunting down the names of people to know who to send things to Um. But so it was a couple more years until I joined her and then she brought me on um to try a sample for that, that cool code series, as a um trial run, kind of just like a six month run, Cause I was still in college, um, a little bit of a risk. And then um started on that series and then we developed the pitch together. So it was, it took a couple years but it, you know, it was nice to have that email for sure I think it's really cool that you're from a family of illustrators.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, it's really special and I think again, like I was talking about with that routine thing, I grew up in a family where people were constantly drawing and it wasn't strange to see people at the dinner table doodling or drawing each other, and so just having that like spirit of practice I think was like the most important thing. And then, um, yeah, yeah, just having that uh normalness of drawing is like was really unique and I feel really thankful for that.
J.D. Myall:My kids are really strong drawers and that's why I was asking what tools to have them practice on, especially like my. Well, all of them, but especially my 16 year olds. Like she's really, really gifted, yeah, and I have no clue where it came from. I always got them supplies cause they like it, but I'm a word girl, right? I don't draw, so I don't know where that gift came from, wasn't me?
Sarah Mai:I mean that's amazing, like I guess I don't really know. I'm like I guess it probably came from my like I don't know, you know, because there's some people in my family they have no inclination for drawing at all and so I guess I never know. But having, like you know, most of my tools when I was growing up, drawing was just like printer paper and, uh, like Ticonderoga yellow pencil, like, and then, if your parent just gives you the time and, you know, response to your artwork, I think that's like, as a parent, one of the best things you can do of just being like. I'm noticing a specific thing about your drawing like I really like that and that's just like for a kid. I think it's really important. It's not always like you know, you can, you can buy every single thing for them and the you know they're probably not going to be able to use all of it and so just, you know, encouraging those I'm. What kind of artwork does your? I don't? I know this is a big tangent, but what kind of do you do?
J.D. Myall:she does some painting, but she mostly does drawing. She likes um charcoal, she likes pencils. She does a little bit of everything. That's awesome. Yeah, I think she'll do graphics one day too, because she she really loves graphic novels and stuff like that. I tried to get her to sit in here so she could hear you, but she's like, keep going.
Sarah Mai:You won't even know you're there keep going yeah, I love like I don't know, it's so fun to think about like that age and um, yeah, just keep it up and don't like, if you hit a slump, like I went through some really weird phases of style and where I was like trying something new, it was so rough and like just not resemble anything at all that I wanted, and again it's just like, just keep working through it. So, just you know, keep a notebook by you. Just you know every little thought you can just get it out and eventually it'll turn into something that you recognize as like what you hoped it would be like. Or I mean, there's things that I still can't do and um, it'll again, it'll just be like practice, just keep practicing it. Um, but it's awesome that you're like encouraging it and excited about it. It's like, yeah, it's exciting, you're excited about it.
J.D. Myall:Your art's great too, by the way. I was looking at your website and stuff oh thanks what has debut year been like? What's that experience?
Sarah Mai:oh, it's been like really interesting.
Sarah Mai:I kind of wasn't sure what I was going to feel like when the book came out, because it's so personal, and it's been really rewarding to hear things back from people and like people I went to college with, or just friends, or going on Goodreads and looking at reviews which I should not be doing but it's really, really rewarding to hear people say like yes, this is what it felt like.
Sarah Mai:Like yes, this is pretty spot on to like the loneliness or this is pretty spot on to the anxiety or the funniness or you know like, because in a way, I think we all kind of felt like we had had a unique year, but we were all kind of like having these similar struggles together and kind of silently. And so, um, while I had known that over the past couple of years, it's just nice to finally, um, be able to share the kind of culmination of work that had happened. And, um, it's been like emotional in and, yeah, it's been emotional and rewarding and kind of beautiful and, um, I feel like everything's a like a contrasting emotion of like, oh, anxiety that it's out, and then like relief that it's out, and then like I'm super zipped up or I'm super tired and um, because I think it's that kind of book where it's personal. That's that's why. But um, really cool, it's been really cool.
Sarah Mai:You have a launch party I did. I had a little launch party at a bookstore I used to work at called Wild Rumpus, here in Minneapolis, and then I'll probably have a smaller gathering of friends here in a couple weeks, but a busy month for everybody. So I just got to wrangle the troops to get together and just finally talk about it.
J.D. Myall:Is there anything you wish you knew before your debut experience? That you? Now know that you.
Sarah Mai:Oh well, in the way that I guess in the same way that kind of in the book, like there was, there were a lot of anxieties that I had about things that did not come to pass journeys or haven't come to pass yet, I guess, juries out on some of the, some of the things. But, um, you cannot feed every single anxiety because, again, not not everything will happen that you think will and, um, and like you don't have to, not everything needs to be thought through a thousand times before it is done. There were some like chapters that I wrote that just kind of flowed out and then they were kind of perfect and they didn't really need any help and some of them I just chiseled away at forever and then eventually kind of came back to the first thought and that was the freshest. And then eventually kind of came back to the first thought, and that was the freshest.
Sarah Mai:And sometimes it's just you have to trust that something is going to work out and then, besides that something I would tell me just it will be done, the work will be done at one point and don't worry, you'll make your deadlines, and good on you for making your deadlines, but people will be nice to you, even if you don't, um, but I did so, that, yeah, just you know it. There were a lot of things I worried about and and now that I know them, moving forward, um, I kind of know, like how organized I need to be for x or how prepared I need to be by this stage, um, but every project is new. So you know, some of that stuff might not be applicable if I do another project and you just have to ride the wave, get to ride the wave of the process and it, you know, follow through and not everything is going to be perfect, but it will be and that's most important.
J.D. Myall:So yeah, very true, true, um. What are you working on currently?
Sarah Mai:so I'm kind of like in a transitional phase with work stuff. I am at a new job. I got an in-person job which has been really exciting, um, and fun. It's a totally different industry and not related to art, um, which I'm really enjoying. But I have started the very early beginnings of a graphic novel.
Sarah Mai:I don't know if I can, I don't know if I should say anything, because then the it'll run away from me, but it's a project that I'm excited about and is is more of a fictional story than than this. It's, yeah, it's a fictional story and fiction's not something I've completed a project in yet. I've done short stories and things, but I'm excited about the thought of it and I'm yeah, I'm in those kind of early stages of putting together the Post-it notes and the note cards and pulling all the little notes from my phone and, yeah, that kind of early organizational stage and it's fun. There's no, I don't have the pressure of needing to sell it right now because I have a stable job and that's very. It's giving me some peace. So now I can just have some fun. But what else am I working on? I'm finishing a painting that has been sitting in my office for a full year that I started a year ago, so is it close enough that we can see it or not?
Sarah Mai:no, it's at home, I wish, but, um, I will post it on my Instagram when it's done. I shouldn't say it'll be done soon, but hopefully it'll be done soon awesome.
J.D. Myall:Um, let me think. Let me think. I think of what we didn't cover. What's the best piece of career advice that you've got from your family of illustrators?
Sarah Mai:oh, okay. So illustration is an industry that has changed a lot and will continue to change a lot. We're in a new phase of AI art and of computer-generated things, and it's an industry that is really susceptible to economic impact and just that ebb and flow of the arts and entertainment industry. So the best piece of advice is like roll with the punches. If you know if it's getting too tough, it doesn't mean anything about you. If you have to go get a job, like it doesn't mean anything If you're having a hard time selling your art in a at a place where they used to just buy, buy, buy, buy, buy.
Sarah Mai:If you send out a thousand emails and you get no responses, it's, it's just how the industry is. And like to know that that is like part of like the the course of a career was really important and I think on one hand, it kind of made them not discourage me from from pursuing it, but like they were worried for me because they know how hard it was. They were like just letting you know it's going to be tricky and like we love you but we would love if you had health insurance, you know. So like just their like empathy was great and knowing that they've had ebbs and flows in their careers where they've gone and done something completely different. Um, or they have to. You have to completely reinvent. You have to reinvent and do a different style. You have to approach different like kinds of products you can do. Maybe you go from editorial magazine to like children's products. You, you need to be able to pivot and like it doesn't. It's not a reflection on, like the quality of your work, it's just a reflection of a market. And if that becomes painful or that becomes too difficult, it is totally, totally fine to just go do something else and do personal work and then maybe in a few years or a few months, like there will be someone in the market that's ready for you again.
Sarah Mai:That is like the best advice I've ever gotten, because I think like it could be so discouraging, like I've sent a thousand notes on linkedin to people and no response. You know, like it's um, it's hard to hear no, but it is a huge part of of everything and um, that was yeah, just knowing that they've heard no a thousand times and they're still they're, they still love it and they still do it personally and it's still meaningful to them and, uh, I will still, I will like even, I will understand that more and more and more as I go throughout and I've not even been, I've only been in the industry for like three years but I'm like that is so important to know about because it can be, you know, it can feel so personal, but not really not. Oh no, did I lose you? Oh, I lost you there for a second.
J.D. Myall:Yeah, I lost you too, Okay, okay. The last thing I heard was that was the most important thing to know about. I think that's it.
Sarah Mai:I think I can stop there.
J.D. Myall:Okay, love that, love that. It. I think I can stop there. Okay, love that, love that. I had a question on the tip of my tongue and then I refroze on my side. I guess I froze on your side and it vanished. Now I'm trying to find it again. Let me think what was it? Oh yeah, I remember now it was the submission process. Did you get a lot of no's in the submission process, or was that a relatively smooth process?
Sarah Mai:for you it was relatively smooth. Again, it needed a lot of work before we got to that point. I think it was on a couple of editors desks. I think this is like cosmic luck, because my editor, who I ended up working with, was like they were looking to fill out their graphic novel collection, which not all places you're trying to do because they're more expensive projects for publishers to do than like a picture book, for example. They were looking for a graphic novel in that age group, ya, and the Christy, the head of the publishing house, had a child that was going to be in their freshman year of college.
J.D. Myall:And so like serendipitous.
Sarah Mai:Yeah, I was like wow. The second they told me that I was like okay, okay, I'm so lucky, like I don't ever have to do anything again, because that was just like that's nice. Um, so, yeah, I'm really lucky and like I have, um, I've tried to sell a project since then and like timing wasn't right. So, um, I feel as though that was the one book that just needed, you know, perhaps needed to be done and, um, I'll keep you know trying in the future, but that process was like weirdly smooth and as like scary as it felt to go through the like contract signing process.
J.D. Myall:Um, overall it was, it was pretty smooth and how long did that take, because I've heard it can take up to four months to get your contract oh yeah, um god.
Sarah Mai:Well, it was like very early covid, and so publishing houses were kind of scrambling and they're kind of figuring out how they're going to do remote stuff. So it was a little delayed. I want to. Oh god, the period was such a blur. I want to say it was probably like, like, probably like three or four months. Um, it could be longer or shorter yeah, it was yeah, four months sounds about right.
Sarah Mai:That's how it was kind of for um, the last two projects too, and again, this might have been a covid thing, but there was a decent gap between when that contract was signed and when we started working. So, um, just, I guess, um, I had advice about that. It's just, you know you can start working on your project and you don't need to wait for them until you start, and uh, um, just be ready for you know when they jump in and give you a deadline.
J.D. Myall:So, um, yes, yeah, yeah, about four months probably okay, um, how did you handle the rejection you spoke about, uh, when you talked about, like, when you send the emails and you don't get responses, the period when you didn't know that was going to all work out in the end, how did you know?
Sarah Mai:oh god, I don't know. I like I probably just went on a lot of walks. I guess you just have to like be hopeful. I mean, yeah, I just yeah, I think I I got into swimming laps in a period. There I was like I just needed some sort of like meditative process and I'm like still in that phase of sending a lot of emails.
Sarah Mai:And one thing that's helpful to think about, like this is a mindset thing, but it's like how would it feel to you to receive a note from somebody on LinkedIn and you've got a full plate, you've got a full, you know full-time job and you've got a lot to do, and someone's reaching out to you and asking for something. You are not beholden to them at all, like you do not have to say anything to them at all. And because I know how overworked a lot of people are, I just am like it just needs to reach one person who's like in a good mood on a Friday. They have an opening mailbox. They haven't. You know, they don't have too much to do.
Sarah Mai:I just try to keep in mind, like what people's lives actually look like when you're sending them all this stuff, because they they're not just, they're not like an evil villain sitting at their desk saying like no, I just want to crush your dreams. Like you can't illustrate for us, like that's not really what it's like and again, I think a lot of it is just timing and repetition. Also, you might not be sending the email to the right person. Like art editors move around a lot, so it could be that like they've left the company, like they don't even work there anymore and um, you need to go to the new registry or whatever and check it out.
Sarah Mai:Um I don't have like a success, um, like a sure way to success for reaching people. But I know a lot of people also go to conferences and that's a good way just to talk to people in person, because that's when they're actually looking and going to those career fest and conference things. That's a surefire way to at least meet somebody in person and then they can put a name to the face and and remember your work. But how did I do? Yeah, sorry, that was tangent.
J.D. Myall:Yes, I go for a walk and I swim and I remind myself so for clarity sake, cause I I think you explained this, but I just want to make sure I heard it right. So, because you keep mentioning, you keep going back to sending the emails. So in the emails you have, like, your pitch for whatever project you're talking about and do you attach your proposal then, or is it just the pitch and a couple of samples? What do you put in the email.
Sarah Mai:It depends on what you're trying to do. So for me, most of the pitching I've done is for, like, editorial illustration. So I'll send them my portfolio, like my website, and then I will make a fly sheet which is just like a PDF of some of my favorite artwork that I think goes with their vibe and a good way to contact you. So it's just, it's really simple. Just keep it as simple as possible for people just to click at it, look at it, think about it and then respond to you and that's just like something that you. Those are things that you make when you're kind of in your marketing. Your marketing hat is on making fly sheets, making care sheets, making marketing. Your marketing hat is on um, making fly sheets, making care sheets, making um, look books, um, just make it really easy for people to see your artwork and then respond to you. Um, pitching wise, I don't know. Yeah, it's mostly editor.
Sarah Mai:Um, I do the same thing for product type illustration. So if I'm contacting a toy company, it's the same thing, just toy specific illustrations, or um, patterns, or tailor, tailor it to who you're actually sending it to and then make sure that the note sounds personal enough, like hi, I, um, I found your company in X magazine and I um really enjoyed this work by blah, I think it really. You know we have a good we would. I think we'd work together great. I have a style that I think kind of resonates with your company and, you know, try and make it as specific as possible so that they know you're not just sending out this same email to a thousand people because you are contacting a real person and you do like. Building those personal connections are important and people want to work with a friendly person and they're hoping you, too, are going to be the perfect person to work with. So, yeah, tailoring those emails for what you're actually trying to do, yeah, that's important. And have a website. You have to have a website.
J.D. Myall:I love it, I love it, I love it. You've given tons of information for aspiring graphic novelists and. I appreciate the wisdom that you've shared and best of luck. Or break a leg, I don't know how you say it in the graphic, yeah, either is fine. I didn't say yeah you don't need my love, though you are going to explore.
Speaker 1:Thank, you, great personality a great spirit and great talent.
J.D. Myall:Oh my god, that's nice I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much all right bye bye that wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with jd mayor. Thanks for joining us. If you like the episode, please comment, subscribe and share. For show notes, writing workshops and tips, head to JDMeyercom. That's JDMeyercom. While you're there, join JD's mailing list for updates, giveaways and more.